| 1 | My lawyer has thrown away documents for an ongoing case after 7 years. He says that's what they usually do.
I need documents from another lawyer that he wrote. I bet he doesn't have them any more.
My father was a lawyer, and he had files going up to the ceiling. trade4us2 - 2021-09-16 13:37:00 |
| 2 | trade4us2 wrote:
My lawyer has thrown away documents for an ongoing case after 7 years. He says that's what they usually do.
I need documents from another lawyer that he wrote. I bet he doesn't have them any more.
My father was a lawyer, and he had files going up to the ceiling. If the case has been going on for seven years they should not have been destroyed assuming the lawyer was aware of the case. If it is a current case relating to events of seven years ago or longer then it depends on the nature of the documents destroyed. johnston - 2021-09-16 13:52:00 |
| 3 | The case has been going on since 1988. There is a document that shows that a beneficiary was given $150,000 in about 2003. That document is now missing from my files. That beneficiary may have taken it from my files. He has now died. His executor wants proof that he got the money. trade4us2 - 2021-09-16 15:36:00 |
| 4 | 7 years and for financial records 10 I think spead - 2021-09-16 16:00:00 |
| 5 | trade4us2 wrote:
The case has been going on since 1988. There is a document that shows that a beneficiary was given $150,000 in about 2003. That document is now missing from my files. That beneficiary may have taken it from my files. He has now died. His executor wants proof that he got the money. Wow, 1988. Are you saying this has been litigated since then? I find that hard to believe. While the missing Deed (presumably if the money was gifted it would have been in a Deed) is problematic it is not insurmountable. If it wasn't a gift, was it a loan? If the courts cannot sort this in 33 years then I don't hold much hope for a message board. Edited by johnston at 4:06 pm, Thu 16 Sep johnston - 2021-09-16 16:05:00 |
| 6 | Let's say that a 30 year old has a will made, and his lawyer holds it. Are you people saying that his lawyer can throw the will away in 7 or 10 years? trade4us2 - 2021-09-16 16:33:00 |
| 7 | trade4us2 wrote:
Let's say that a 30 year old has a will made, and his lawyer holds it. Are you people saying that his lawyer can throw the will away in 7 or 10 years? no thats a deed as alluded to above. However a Nelson hot shot law firm did exactly that, they pruned their deeds file to 7 years. gabbysnana - 2021-09-16 17:08:00 |
| 8 | trade4us2 wrote:
Let's say that a 30 year old has a will made, and his lawyer holds it. Are you people saying that his lawyer can throw the will away in 7 or 10 years? No one said that. Are you now saying the lost document is a Will? johnston - 2021-09-16 17:26:00 |
| 9 | I do not believe the case has been going for 33 years. What are the names of the parties? johnston - 2021-09-16 17:30:00 |
| 10 | johnston wrote:
I do not believe the case has been going for 33 years. What are the names of the parties? Why on earth would I post the names of people here?
So maybe this is the most complicated estate ever. If you don't believe me you may as well go away. trade4us2 - 2021-09-16 20:01:00 |
| 11 | spead wrote:
7 years and for financial records 10 I think Seven for financial, unless they are audited for the OAG (Office of the Auditor-General), usually schools, that is 10 years. There could be others, but that is all I am familiar with. Edited by joanie04 at 10:08 pm, Thu 16 Sep joanie04 - 2021-09-16 22:07:00 |
| 12 | trade4us2 wrote:
Why on earth would I post the names of people here?
So maybe this is the most complicated estate ever. If you don't believe me you may as well go away. Guessing the lawyers name is Rich. sparkychap - 2021-09-16 22:09:00 |
| 13 | trade4us2 wrote:
Why on earth would I post the names of people here?
So maybe this is the most complicated estate ever. If you don't believe me you may as well go away. I want to verfify your story. If the case has been going on for 33 years as you claim, all the decisions will be a matter of public record. johnston - 2021-09-16 22:54:00 |
| 14 | trade4us2 wrote:
The case has been going on since 1988. There is a document that shows that a beneficiary was given $150,000 in about 2003. That document is now missing from my files. That beneficiary may have taken it from my files. He has now died. His executor wants proof that he got the money.
There should be bank statements for the trust account from the will. This should have the money gone out to his bank account. It won't prove if a loan or gift or disenbursement or any details on that the document had. I take it in the will money or property was left in trust for someone which is common till the age of 21 or for someone that is not capable of looking after themselves for their lifetime. Is this why the money has not been paid out? Has the case ever been to court? Are you a beneficiary waiting to receive some money? I would think the current lawyers will have kept all documents from the start. Lawyers do throw things out after seven years if you are not still a client. Likely thought this would of been sorted 5 years ago can throw it out now. A will is different and is not thrown out. ash4561 - 2021-09-17 05:27:00 |
| 15 | trade4us2 wrote:
The case has been going on since 1988. There is a document that shows that a beneficiary was given $150,000 in about 2003. That document is now missing from my files. That beneficiary may have taken it from my files. He has now died. His executor wants proof that he got the money. There should be bank records let probate chase it up, not your issue really unless they can prove the funds weren't paid. deboron - 2021-09-17 07:37:00 |
| 16 | Two questions trade4us2, you say the case has been going on for 33 years. Has it ever gone to court, and if so, how many times? johnston - 2021-09-17 08:22:00 |
| 17 | johnston wrote:
I do not believe the case has been going for 33 years. What are the names of the parties? concluded one that had started 45 years prior, involved the mob who lived rent free all those years. Great day when they got their marching orders. gabbysnana - 2021-09-17 09:34:00 |
| 18 | After 33 years, lawyers and court fees would have swallowed a large portion of $150,000. Time for a settlement out-of-court, while the parties still can. amasser - 2021-09-17 09:44:00 |
| 19 | gabbysnana wrote:
concluded one that had started 45 years prior, involved the mob who lived rent free all those years. Great day when they got their marching orders. I do not disbelieve the matter goes back 33 years or longer, just that there is a case going back that far that has not been resolved. More so when an executor rather than a judge is trying to figure out whether money was gifted or loaned 18 years ago. I suspect there is not even a case let alone one playing out over three decades. Courts are often asked to determine exactly these sorts of disputes and they do not recile from doing so. Even with various appeals they get sorted. As above, $150,000 would soon be swallowed if it really was being litigated through the courts. Was the gang issue concerning Maori land? Just curious. johnston - 2021-09-17 10:02:00 |
| 20 | ash4561 wrote:
There should be bank statements for the trust account from the will. This should have the money gone out to his bank account. It won't prove if a loan or gift or disenbursement or any details on that the document had. I take it in the will money or property was left in trust for someone which is common till the age of 21 or for someone that is not capable of looking after themselves for their lifetime. Is this why the money has not been paid out? Has the case ever been to court? Are you a beneficiary waiting to receive some money? I would think the current lawyers will have kept all documents from the start. Lawyers do throw things out after seven years if you are not still a client. Likely thought this would of been sorted 5 years ago can throw it out now. A will is different and is not thrown out. There is no trust account. There are three wills. There have been 7 executors (as the old ones retired) and each of 4 beneficiaries has his/her own lawyer. The original executor has posted cheques for will 1 to a beneficiary that have been intercepted and reinvested elsewhere.
The case has never been to court and probably never will do. One of the executors of will 2 was a beneficiary. He has died and probably hidden the document showing loans to him. His executor (of will 3) now wants proof of the loans to him. The current executor of will 2 should have the documents but can't find them. Two beneficiaries of will 2 had the will changed and a new executor appointed. The current lawyers have admitted throwing out documents after 7 years even though they still have beneficiaries as clients.
The ASB bank has been very helpful. The ANZ were extremely unhelpful. They denied having bank accounts even though I have original statements for them with the account number on them. The $10,000 in that account has vanished. I am not at all impressed by the record keeping of all concerned. It's actually more complicated than this. I have about 5000 pages of documents. I have not thrown away any. trade4us2 - 2021-09-17 14:12:00 |
| 21 | By the sound of this ,its time to give it away as the lawyers will be the only ones getting anything out of it , if any money still exists .
This is certainly not the place for this to try to get settled . martin11 - 2021-09-17 14:17:00 |
| 22 | martin11 wrote:
By the sound of this ,its time to give it away as the lawyers will be the only ones getting anything out of it , if any money still exists .
This is certainly not the place for this to try to get settled . I was just asking why lawyers throw away documents for ongoing cases without asking their clients first.
The whole legal system is a mess. Every time I need to search a title, the system has changed. The Council records are a mess as well. trade4us2 - 2021-09-17 14:24:00 |
| 23 | trade4us2 wrote:
I was just asking why lawyers throw away documents for ongoing cases without asking their clients first.
The whole legal system is a mess. Every time I need to search a title, the system has changed. The Council records are a mess as well. But it was not a case. If it was a Deed it should not have been destroyed but you are coy about even confirming it was. Also if it was a Deed, there might be a digital copy. Edited by johnston at 2:29 pm, Fri 17 Sep johnston - 2021-09-17 14:26:00 |
| 24 | johnston wrote:
I do not disbelieve the matter goes back 33 years or longer, just that there is a case going back that far that has not been resolved. More so when an executor rather than a judge is trying to figure out whether money was gifted or loaned 18 years ago. I suspect there is not even a case let alone one playing out over three decades. Courts are often asked to determine exactly these sorts of disputes and they do not recile from doing so. Even with various appeals they get sorted. As above, $150,000 would soon be swallowed if it really was being litigated through the courts. Was the gang issue concerning Maori land? Just curious. general land, female daughter administrators picked off over 40 years by male mob whanau, slobs like to keep their woman in line with the bash. Threats to life and intimidation of all involved, but last living child held strong, beneficiaries ended up being grandchildren. gabbysnana - 2021-09-17 14:29:00 |
| 25 | gabbysnana wrote:
general land, female daughter administrators picked off over 40 years by male mob whanau, slobs like to keep their woman in line with the bash. Threats to life and intimidation of all involved, but last living child held strong, beneficiaries ended up being grandchildren. Excellent outcome and great tenacity. Edited by johnston at 2:46 pm, Fri 17 Sep johnston - 2021-09-17 14:45:00 |
| 26 | I'm surprised they have thrown the documents away. These days data is scanned so that it is still available. |
| 27 | gabbysnana wrote:
general land, female daughter administrators picked off over 40 years by male mob whanau, slobs like to keep their woman in line with the bash. Threats to life and intimidation of all involved, but last living child held strong, beneficiaries ended up being grandchildren. At least it went up in value over 40 years. ash4561 - 2021-09-17 21:18:00 |
| 28 | spead wrote:
7 years and for financial records 10 I think
This although now that documents and files are only kept digitally they can be kept for longer without taking up so much storage space. Actual Deeds such as wills, leases, trust deeds, etc. are kept as “physical” documents. Edited by sarahb5 at 9:31 pm, Fri 17 Sep sarahb5 - 2021-09-17 21:23:00 |
| 29 | trade4us2 wrote:
The case has been going on since 1988. There is a document that shows that a beneficiary was given $150,000 in about 2003. That document is now missing from my files. That beneficiary may have taken it from my files. He has now died. His executor wants proof that he got the money.
There should still be a paper trail of the financial transactions which would have been recorded electronically even in 2003. As an aside “trust account” doesn’t refer to an actual trust - the trust account is where lawyers “hold” client funds “on trust” to use as the client directs. sarahb5 - 2021-09-17 21:29:00 |
| 30 | trade4us2 wrote:
There is no trust account. There are three wills. There have been 7 executors (as the old ones retired) and each of 4 beneficiaries has his/her own lawyer. The original executor has posted cheques for will 1 to a beneficiary that have been intercepted and reinvested elsewhere.
The case has never been to court and probably never will do. One of the executors of will 2 was a beneficiary. He has died and probably hidden the document showing loans to him. His executor (of will 3) now wants proof of the loans to him. The current executor of will 2 should have the documents but can't find them. Two beneficiaries of will 2 had the will changed and a new executor appointed. The current lawyers have admitted throwing out documents after 7 years even though they still have beneficiaries as clients.
The ASB bank has been very helpful. The ANZ were extremely unhelpful. They denied having bank accounts even though I have original statements for them with the account number on them. The $10,000 in that account has vanished. I am not at all impressed by the record keeping of all concerned. It's actually more complicated than this. I have about 5000 pages of documents. I have not thrown away any.
Difficulty with executors especially the one that was a beneficiary. If its money it has devalued to nothing with $150,000 missing and anything else divided by 4. It sounds like the 150,000 shouldn't of gone out. Were there more than one executor at a time. The next ones could of been ok but they can't sort the previous mess. Now its at a stand still trying to get the 150,000 might not get it if will 2 executor doesn't find the documents. If there is anything more than the 150,000 it could be paid out to the four beneficiaries and still work on getting the 150,000. Not sure if there would of been problems it the executor didn't take the $150,000. ash4561 - 2021-09-17 21:36:00 |
| 31 | Each beneficiary's share of estate 2 is about $90,000. If the $150,000 can't be found, each will get about $20,000 less. It might be worth paying $20,000 just to settle the estate. The house value has gone up by $1,840,000
in 30 years. trade4us2 - 2021-09-17 23:20:00 |
| 32 | sarahb5 wrote:
This although now that documents and files are only kept digitally they can be kept for longer without taking up so much storage space. Actual Deeds such as wills, leases, trust deeds, etc. are kept as “physical” documents. I have found my copies of a number of "deeds". So are the lawyers not allowed to throw the original deeds away?
What happens if a lawyer retires or his business closes down? Do the deeds go somewhere sensible? The law seems to be stupid. trade4us2 - 2021-09-21 22:55:00 |
| 33 | trade4us2 wrote:
I have found my copies of a number of "deeds". So are the lawyers not allowed to throw the original deeds away?
What happens if a lawyer retires or his business closes down? Do the deeds go somewhere sensible? The law seems to be stupid. You don't know the law so why say it is stupid? So the "missing" $150,000, did you find a deed of gift or loan? johnston - 2021-09-22 07:02:00 |
| 34 | trade4us2 wrote:
I have found my copies of a number of "deeds". So are the lawyers not allowed to throw the original deeds away?
What happens if a lawyer retires or his business closes down? Do the deeds go somewhere sensible? The law seems to be stupid.
Firstly lawyers can and do destroy deeds if they are obsolete but generally they would only be deemed obsolete if there was no on-going matter or case - it’s only a case if court proceedings have been commenced and are on-going. Secondly the deeds don’t belong to the lawyer so if they die, retire or leave a practice the deeds stay where they are. They can be uplifted by the client or another lawyer acting for that client. sarahb5 - 2021-09-22 07:20:00 |
| 35 | sarahb5 wrote:
Firstly lawyers can and do destroy deeds if they are obsolete but generally they would only be deemed obsolete if there was no on-going matter or case - it’s only a case if court proceedings have been commenced and are on-going. Secondly the deeds don’t belong to the lawyer so if they die, retire or leave a practice the deeds stay where they are. They can be uplifted by the client or another lawyer acting for that client. There is no case, that's a figment of the op's imagination. To add to what you posted, the documents/file remain in the practice so it makes no difference if a solictor leaves. A sole practioner has other arrangements in the case of death or incapacity. johnston - 2021-09-22 08:58:00 |
| 36 | johnston wrote:
You don't know the law so why say it is stupid? So the "missing" $150,000, did you find a deed of gift or loan? One lawyer stated "In line with the Law Societies guidelines on retention of trust account records, we do not keep records as far back as the dates you seek."
It is stupid to not keep documents until estates are settled. trade4us2 - 2021-09-22 10:55:00 |
| 37 | trade4us2 wrote:
One lawyer stated "In line with the Law Societies guidelines on retention of trust account records, we do not keep records as far back as the dates you seek."
It is stupid to not keep documents until estates are settled. Trust account records. johnston - 2021-09-22 12:51:00 |
| 38 | trade4us2 wrote:
One lawyer stated "In line with the Law Societies guidelines on retention of trust account records, we do not keep records as far back as the dates you seek."
It is stupid to not keep documents until estates are settled.
Trust account records are just financial records nothing to do with deeds or documents sarahb5 - 2021-09-22 13:47:00 |
| 39 | johnston wrote:
There is no case, that's a figment of the op's imagination. To add to what you posted, the documents/file remain in the practice so it makes no difference if a solictor leaves. A sole practioner has other arrangements in the case of death or incapacity.
In our practice we only keep electronic copies of the file/documents - deeds are stored physically but “hard copies” of letters, etc are shredded when the matter file is closed sarahb5 - 2021-09-22 13:49:00 |
| 40 | sarahb5 wrote:
Trust account records are just financial records nothing to do with deeds or documents Correct me if I am wrong - are you saying that Estate Trust Account records aren't documents and can just be tossed? maddie44 - 2021-09-22 14:12:00 |
| 41 | maddie44 wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong - are you saying that Estate Trust Account records aren't documents and can just be tossed? You are wrong. Trust account records are just that, trust account records. Trust account records relating to a client must be retained for a period of at least 6 years from the date of the last transaction recorded (there are a few exceptions). So they cannot simply be "tossed." johnston - 2021-09-22 15:45:00 |
| 42 | johnston wrote:
You are wrong. Trust account records are just that, trust account records. Trust account records relating to a client must be retained for a period of at least 6 years from the date of the last transaction recorded (there are a few exceptions). So they cannot simply be "tossed." How can I possibly be wrong for asking if that was what the poster was saying. when you have verified it. If an Estate Trust Account goes on for years without the estate being wound up should all records including the trust account records, credits debits... be kept until the estate is closed or whatever the correct term is? maddie44 - 2021-09-22 15:59:00 |
| 43 | The member deleted this message. johnston - 2021-09-22 16:07:00 |
| 44 | maddie44 wrote:
How can I possibly be wrong for asking if that was what the poster was saying. when you have verified it. If an Estate Trust Account goes on for years without the estate being wound up should all records including the trust account records, credits debits... be kept until the estate is closed or whatever the correct term is? Because you wrongly interpreted what the poster said. johnston - 2021-09-22 16:08:00 |
| 45 | maddie44 wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong - are you saying that Estate Trust Account records aren't documents and can just be tossed?
You are wrong. Estates are clients - what you understand to be trust account records is incorrect. Trust account records are the firms financial records for their clients. They are stored electronically only for 10 years - they are not physical documents although they could be printed if they had to be but very rare that they are. I don’t think you understand the difference between a trust account and a trust or a testamentary trust. https://www.lawsociety.org.nz/professional-practice/legal-pr
actice/trust-account-management/ https://www.findlaw.co.nz/articles/4238/what-is-a-trust.aspx
https://nzlaw.co.nz/the-closing-chapter/the-will/ - scroll to the bottom to find out how a trust can be created by a will after the testator has died. Edited by sarahb5 at 6:17 pm, Wed 22 Sep sarahb5 - 2021-09-22 18:13:00 |
| 46 | sarahb5 wrote:
You are wrong. Estates are clients - what you understand to be trust account records is incorrect. Trust account records are the firms financial records for their clients. They are stored electronically only for 10 years - they are not physical documents although they could be printed if they had to be but very rare that they are. And if the estate is still running should they not keep records of all transactions until the estate is wound up? maddie44 - 2021-09-22 18:16:00 |
| 47 | maddie44 wrote:
And if the estate is still running should they not keep records of all transactions until the estate is wound up?
They do - kept for 10 years after the estate has been finalised and funds distributed although if beneficiaries can’t be found or are too young to inherit then those funds are held on trust until they can be paid out. Edited by sarahb5 at 6:19 pm, Wed 22 Sep sarahb5 - 2021-09-22 18:17:00 |
| 48 | maddie44 wrote:
And if the estate is still running should they not keep records of all transactions until the estate is wound up? Who says otherwise? johnston - 2021-09-22 18:21:00 |
| 49 | johnston wrote:
Who says otherwise? My lawyer has thrown away documents. He has agreed to keep all the rest. Edited by trade4us2 at 7:20 pm, Wed 22 Sep trade4us2 - 2021-09-22 19:20:00 |
| 50 | trade4us2 wrote:
My lawyer has thrown away documents. He has agreed to keep all the rest. What estate documents did your lawyer not retain that he should have? johnston - 2021-09-22 19:48:00 |
