https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/will-be-passed-on-to
-customers-iwi-can-charge-commercial-ops-for-use-of-lake-tau
p%c5%8d-court-rules/ar-AAMBuZK?ocid=UP97DHP&li=BBqdg4K&a
mp;pc=UP97

A percentage is not a fee!
That makes them a shareholder.
My landlord charges me a SET fee per month, I also do that with my tenants.
I don't show him my books and don't expect my tenants to show me theirs.

smallwoods - 2021-07-27 23:14:00

Operators will pay up and charge customers if they can. Or fold their tents and as the Finance Minister says 'look elsewhere'.

artemis - 2021-07-28 06:53:00

DoC charges a concession or fee for commercial users on Conservation land. The concept is the same as Ngati Tuwharetoa seeking to charge commercial operators a fee. I am surprised that 'someone' ie whoever thought that there was a case worth fighting. .

shanreagh - 2021-07-28 10:03:00

shanreagh wrote:

DoC charges a concession or fee for commercial users on Conservation land. The concept is the same as Ngati Tuwharetoa seeking to charge commercial operators a fee. I am surprised that 'someone' ie whoever thought that there was a case worth fighting. .

DOC charge a fee, Ngati Tuwharetoa is a percentage.
They are NOT the same.

One is a fee, straight and simple.
"pay $? and you can use"

Taupo is, show us your books, so we can charge you.
That is a partnership/shareholder deal.

smallwoods - 2021-07-28 15:09:00

smallwoods wrote:

DOC charge a fee, Ngati Tuwharetoa is a percentage.
They are NOT the same.

One is a fee, straight and simple.
"pay $? and you can use"

Taupo is, show us your books, so we can charge you.
That is a partnership/shareholder deal.

And most organised criminals charge a percentage. Way more leverage than a set amount. Its all about the leverage.

trouser - 2021-07-28 18:08:00

When I worked in a Govt agency that administered land back in the day we charged a percentage. We found often that operators were hiding $$$$$ and therefore ripping the Crown/people of NZ off so it is interesting that Ngati Tuwharetoa are choosing a %. Quite intensive to administer.. They may have chosen it over a fee as the squawking might have been even louder if a realistic fee had been set.

I have no problems with an owner using the type of structure that suits them. First rule of thumb for a business is to pay for the 'premises' on which you operate your business.

Ngati Tuwharetoa has been deprived of return on its assets for many years. Again I have no problem with this being righted.

shanreagh - 2021-07-28 18:19:00

smallwoods wrote:

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/wi
ll-be-passed-on-to-customers-iwi-can-charge-commercial-ops-f
or-use-of-lake-taup%c5%8d-court-rules/ar-AAMBuZK?ocid=UP97DH
P&li=BBqdg4K&pc=UP97

A percentage is not a fee!
That makes them a shareholder.
My landlord charges me a SET fee per month, I also do that with my tenants.
I don't show him my books and don't expect my tenants to show me theirs.

Shit - I pay a percentage of my income to the govtmint, does that make them a shareholder in me?

sparkychap - 2021-07-28 18:25:00

sparkychap wrote:

Shit - I pay a percentage of my income to the govtmint, does that make them a shareholder in me?

No you don't sparky.

You hide it under your bed!

By the way, the are not shareholders, they OWN your arse!!!!!!!!!!!

smallwoods - 2021-07-28 20:11:00

shanreagh wrote:

When I worked in a Govt agency that administered land back in the day we charged a percentage. We found often that operators were hiding $$$$$ and therefore ripping the Crown/people of NZ off so it is interesting that Ngati Tuwharetoa are choosing a %. Quite intensive to administer.. They may have chosen it over a fee as the squawking might have been even louder if a realistic fee had been set.

I have no problems with an owner using the type of structure that suits them. First rule of thumb for a business is to pay for the 'premises' on which you operate your business.

Ngati Tuwharetoa has been deprived of return on its assets for many years. Again I have no problem with this being righted.

Boat rides at a loss, but "koha" accepted, so not income.

smallwoods - 2021-07-28 20:12:00

sparkychap wrote:

Shit - I pay a percentage of my income to the govtmint, does that make them a shareholder in me?

Perhaps - but why worry? If you are like most in this financial environment you will be indebted to the banking system, have minimal equity and consequently be of very little worth if you cease to earn any income.

brouser3 - 2021-07-28 23:56:00

brouser3 wrote:

Perhaps - but why worry? If you are like most in this financial environment you will be indebted to the banking system, have minimal equity and consequently be of very little worth if you cease to earn any income.

Phew - looks like I’m alright, Jack.

sparkychap - 2021-07-29 04:22:00

This message was deleted.

gunna-1 - 2021-07-29 04:45:00

A percentage is smart. A flat fee - even a graduated one - would be much more challenging for new businesses starting out, and would be a whole lot less fair.
As sparky says, it doesn't make them a shareholder. It's more like a tax - rates, for example, are charged differentially depending on the value of properties.

luteba - 2021-07-29 19:47:00

Pretty easy to minimise the income amount you need to pay the percentage on.

loud_37 - 2021-07-29 20:02:00

loud_37 wrote:

Pretty easy to minimise the income amount you need to pay the percentage on.

If you are a clued up lessor or owner you will make it difficult to do this by specifying what part of the business and at what stage the % is worked out on. So it is not usually on the accounts for tax purposes that have all the deductions applied. . Still,. in doing this, you do create more work than a fee structure.

shanreagh - 2021-07-29 23:25:00

5% of the turnover will be a huge cut in the bottom line.
That is where the bank looks.

smallwoods - 2021-07-30 08:07:00

smallwoods wrote:

5% of the turnover will be a huge cut in the bottom line.
That is where the bank looks.

Lessors/owners are not banks. They do not have to follow what banks do.

Read again the rule of thumb for anyone renting a business rent or fees should be first cut, then taxes, then drawings.

shanreagh - 2021-07-30 08:21:00

shanreagh wrote:

DoC charges a concession or fee for commercial users on Conservation land. The concept is the same as Ngati Tuwharetoa seeking to charge commercial operators a fee. I am surprised that 'someone' ie whoever thought that there was a case worth fighting. .

land isn't water.

bitsnpieces2020 - 2021-07-31 17:41:00

shanreagh wrote:

When I worked in a Govt agency that administered land back in the day we charged a percentage. We found often that operators were hiding $$$$$ and therefore ripping the Crown/people of NZ off so it is interesting that Ngati Tuwharetoa are choosing a %. Quite intensive to administer.. They may have chosen it over a fee as the squawking might have been even louder if a realistic fee had been set.

I have no problems with an owner using the type of structure that suits them. First rule of thumb for a business is to pay for the 'premises' on which you operate your business.

Ngati Tuwharetoa has been deprived of return on its assets for many years. Again I have no problem with this being righted.

your govt agency example sounds like ancient history. Theres far less cash transactions in NZ today than 10+ years ago.

bitsnpieces2020 - 2021-07-31 17:47:00

bitsnpieces2020 wrote:

land isn't water.

yet there is land under the water.

sparkychap - 2021-07-31 18:25:00

bitsnpieces2020 wrote:

your govt agency example sounds like ancient history. Theres far less cash transactions in NZ today than 10+ years ago.

?????? It was not about hiding cash.

shanreagh - 2021-07-31 19:09:00

shanreagh wrote:

Lessors/owners are not banks. They do not have to follow what banks do.

Read again the rule of thumb for anyone renting a business rent or fees should be first cut, then taxes, then drawings.

Who said anything about them being banks?
The bank looks at the "bottom" line

How many landlords you know charge a percentage?

Franchises maybe, but lake Taupo isn't one, is it?

smallwoods - 2021-07-31 22:32:00

smallwoods wrote:

Who said anything about them being banks?
The bank looks at the "bottom" line

How many landlords you know charge a percentage?

Franchises maybe, but lake Taupo isn't one, is it?

You were the one who mentioned banks.

Landlords can choose whatever method of rent setting that suits their business.

I am pleased that Ngati Tuwharetoa is able to do this now. They have a long history of being good business like people who care for the people of NZ.

Remember it was who donated Tongariro NP on 23 September 1887.

"They partnered with the crown to enact a tuku (act of customary lore) to preserve the natural beauty of the three mountain peaks, Ngaruhoe, Tongariro and Ruapehu. This act by the Ngati Tuwharetoa made Tongariro, the first National Park in the world to be gifted by its indigenous people."

shanreagh - 2021-08-01 08:23:00

Be nice if those commercial operators actually contributed to Ngati Tuwharetoa's management costs. For years they have exploited the Lake and ignored the fact their use of the Lake was ripping off a gift granted to all of us. Sharing the costs would be a good thing for business interests to consider.

Edited by oh_hunnihunni at 8:33 am, Sun 1 Aug

oh_hunnihunni - 2021-08-01 08:33:00

Stolen, exploited .. time it was set to rights.

sweetgurl108 - 2021-08-01 15:36:00

oh_hunnihunni wrote:

Be nice if those commercial operators actually contributed to Ngati Tuwharetoa's management costs. For years they have exploited the Lake and ignored the fact their use of the Lake was ripping off a gift granted to all of us. Sharing the costs would be a good thing for business interests to consider.

No Hunni.......'they' just want to moan because now Ngati Tuwharetoa is asking for rent. Honestly some of the moaners should go and find out about Ngati Tuwharetoa, who have always had the reputation of being good business people with a premium put on education for their people.

shanreagh - 2021-08-01 16:33:00

sweetgurl108 wrote:

Stolen, exploited .. time it was set to rights.

Yes indeed but moaners just gotta moan.

shanreagh - 2021-08-01 16:33:00

shanreagh wrote:

You were the one who mentioned banks.

Landlords can choose whatever method of rent setting that suits their business.

I am pleased that Ngati Tuwharetoa is able to do this now. They have a long history of being good business like people who care for the people of NZ.

Remember it was who donated Tongariro NP on 23 September 1887.

"They partnered with the crown to enact a tuku (act of customary lore) to preserve the natural beauty of the three mountain peaks, Ngaruhoe, Tongariro and Ruapehu. This act by the Ngati Tuwharetoa made Tongariro, the first National Park in the world to be gifted by its indigenous people."

Big difference to say "banks look at the bottom line" and "landlords being a bank"
Landlords can't just make up rules to suit themselves, lol.
The court of appeal said "they could set their fees or charges"
A percentage is neither a fee or a charge, it is a rate.

smallwoods - 2021-08-01 17:41:00

sweetgurl108 wrote:

Stolen, exploited .. time it was set to rights.

Lake Taupo has NEVER been stolen!
It has never been in private ownership, under govt control all the time.
The govt departments administered and charge (set) fees to commercial operators and fishing licenses.
This has now been taken over by the iwi.
All good, to that point.

Set fees and percentage are different.

smallwoods - 2021-08-01 17:48:00

smallwoods wrote:

Lake Taupo has NEVER been stolen!
It has never been in private ownership, under govt control all the time.
The govt departments administered and charge (set) fees to commercial operators and fishing licenses.
This has now been taken over by the iwi.
All good, to that point.

Set fees and percentage are different.

The point is that it has been under Crown control when it should have been under the control of Ngati Tuwharetoa.
How did it get to be in Crown control when prior to colonisation it was under the control of Iwi?
Something missing there.

I think a LL has the right to charge its rent following whatever method it chooses. It is not bound to charge a fixed fee just because the Crown charged a fixed fee.

shanreagh - 2021-08-01 19:11:00

shanreagh wrote:

No Hunni.......'they' just want to moan because now Ngati Tuwharetoa is asking for rent. Honestly some of the moaners should go and find out about Ngati Tuwharetoa, who have always had the reputation of being good business people with a premium put on education for their people.

I know, best year of my life were spent there...

oh_hunnihunni - 2021-08-01 19:22:00

shanreagh wrote:

The point is that it has been under Crown control when it should have been under the control of Ngati Tuwharetoa.
How did it get to be in Crown control when prior to colonisation it was under the control of Iwi?
Something missing there.

I think a LL has the right to charge its rent following whatever method it chooses. It is not bound to charge a fixed fee just because the Crown charged a fixed fee.

LOL, the govt is partnered to everyone and the departments work for all of us.

There goes your story about being "stolen" then , doesn't it?

DoC and many iwi are working together.

smallwoods - 2021-08-02 14:40:00

sparkychap wrote:

yet there is land under the water.

and? nobodies using that.

bitsnpieces2020 - 2021-08-02 16:09:00

shanreagh wrote:

?????? It was not about hiding cash.

when was it ?

bitsnpieces2020 - 2021-08-02 16:10:00

bitsnpieces2020 wrote:

and? nobodies using that.

obviously you are, otherwise the water would fall out.

sparkychap - 2021-08-02 18:16:00

sparkychap wrote:

obviously you are, otherwise the water would fall out.

so they own the air too then ? the space above that?
Are the iwi able to charge airNZ for flying over the lake? Spark / vodafone, etc for the cellphone signals going through that region? Starlink, when satellites go over lake taupo ?

bitsnpieces2020 - 2021-08-14 17:48:00

bitsnpieces2020 wrote:

so they own the air too then ? the space above that?
Are the iwi able to charge airNZ for flying over the lake? Spark / vodafone, etc for the cellphone signals going through that region? Starlink, when satellites go over lake taupo ?

actually all property owners own the airspace over their lands up to an undefined but “reasonable” height for the enjoyment of the property. So nothing different there to Robbie and Doris at number 14.

sparkychap - 2021-08-14 18:21:00

smallwoods wrote:

LOL, the govt is partnered to everyone and the departments work for all of us.

There goes your story about being "stolen" then , doesn't it?

DoC and many iwi are working together.

So if the government took over ownership of your house tomorrow, without compensating you in any way, that would be fine with you, because the government is partnered with everyone? You wouldn't feel like it had been stolen at all?

luteba - 2021-08-14 21:25:00

luteba wrote:

So if the government took over ownership of your house tomorrow, without compensating you in any way, that would be fine with you, because the government is partnered with everyone? You wouldn't feel like it had been stolen at all?

Wrong argument there, as the Govt can take your house under public works.
Will only pay what they feel is fair.

smallwoods - 2021-08-14 21:41:00

luteba wrote:

So if the government took over ownership of your house tomorrow, without compensating you in any way, that would be fine with you, because the government is partnered with everyone? You wouldn't feel like it had been stolen at all?

Maori had houses on the floor of lake taupo ?

bitsnpieces2020 - 2021-08-14 21:57:00

sparkychap wrote:

actually all property owners own the airspace over their lands up to an undefined but “reasonable” height for the enjoyment of the property. So nothing different there to Robbie and Doris at number 14.

except of course nobody is under the lakewater enjoying the property.
By your logic the people losing their property to erosion & rising seas will still own it, and it being underwater means nothing. I wonder if Taupo council is going to charge rates for the many hectares of lake bottom, afterall its no different to a life style block.

Edited by bitsnpieces2020 at 10:03 pm, Sat 14 Aug

bitsnpieces2020 - 2021-08-14 22:03:00

bitsnpieces2020 wrote:

except of course nobody is under the lakewater enjoying the property.

Apart from the divers of course. But the Deed also provides for ownership of the space taken by the water as well, but not the water itself as no individual can own water in NZ

bitsnpieces2020 wrote:

By your logic the people losing their property to erosion & rising seas will still own it, and it being underwater means nothing.

No because riparian rights would apply in those cases, although in the case of rivers, adjoining landowners can own the river beds.

And it's not "my logic", its the law.

bitsnpieces2020 wrote:

I wonder if Taupo council is going to charge rates for the many hectares of lake bottom, afterall its no different to a life style block.

No it's not. it's classified as Passive Reserve as all similar property is and is non rateable.

Edited by sparkychap at 10:28 pm, Sat 14 Aug

sparkychap - 2021-08-14 22:27:00

you sure about them being passive reserves? Seems at odds for privately held land.

bitsnpieces2020 - 2021-08-14 23:49:00

Yes.

sparkychap - 2021-08-15 00:09:00