If this goes ahead looks like more rate rises on the cards

I hope every district council gives its ratepayers a chance to vote democratically whether we want this or not.

Have a listen to this for a bit of an idea of where the govt is goimg with this.

https://www.facebook.com/coastersclub/videos/141901079181102
8/?extid=TWT-UNK-UNK-UNK-AN_GK0T-GK1C

lakeview3 - 2021-07-24 18:18:00

How many more blardy rate increases and future debt to these bureaucrats think they can saddle us with?

lakeview3 - 2021-07-24 18:20:00

Last thing that will ever happen is a vote. Consultation will just be box ticking nonsense as usual. All hail our glorious leaders.

pcle - 2021-07-24 18:31:00

"The Mayors were informed by Minister Mahuta that councils have until the end of September 2021 to advise government if they are in or out of the proposed 3 waters reform structure.

Mayors were also informed that information which has not been received at present would be supplied by government via DIA and sent to councils for consideration during August/September."
The governments time frame doesn't allow for public consultation by not giving councils all the information needed before having to make a decision.....like so many things this corrupt government is pushing through behind our backs. Collins is correct we need to demand a debate on all this crap.
https://www.national.org.nz/demand-the-debate-on-he-puapua

Edited by maddie44 at 6:55 pm, Sat 24 Jul

maddie44 - 2021-07-24 18:53:00

maddie44 wrote:

"The Mayors were informed by Minister Mahuta that councils have until the end of September 2021 to advise government if they are in or out of the proposed 3 waters reform structure.

Mayors were also informed that information which has not been received at present would be supplied by government via DIA and sent to councils for consideration during August/September."
The governments time frame doesn't allow for public consultation by not giving councils all the information needed before having to make a decision.....like so many things this corrupt government is pushing through behind our backs. Collins is correct we need to demand a debate on all this crap.
https://www.national.org.nz/demand-the-debate-on-he-puapua[/
quote]

we need to do more than demand a debate, we need to bring legal proceedings against the govt for undemocratic behaviour. National has enough lawyers can’t they do something? Or do they silently agree with it also…..

Edited by lakeview3 at 7:13 pm, Sat 24 Jul

lakeview3 - 2021-07-24 19:12:00

Funny thing is that the people voted for this current government. Their ratings are still high so who is complaining, except National voters.

mulch_king - 2021-07-24 19:56:00

mulch_king wrote:

Funny thing is that the people voted for this current government. Their ratings are still high so who is complaining, except National voters.

I think if many people knew these kinds of plans about water, indoctrination of our children, sex self ID, co governance etc etc then they wouldn’t have voted for them.

The problem is National was just so awful. They have got rid of some of the people who were holding them back, but their problem is they only represent the rich now. People like me, who traditionally voted for them won’t vote for them now because they have thrown my kids under the bus.

lakeview3 - 2021-07-24 20:01:00

Things have got so much worse with the current lot, but they are still bleating on about the "previous government". Don't know how long one can blame historical decisions, yet they still do.

mulch_king - 2021-07-24 20:06:00

mulch_king wrote:

Funny thing is that the people voted for this current government. Their ratings are still high so who is complaining, except National voters.

OP isn't a National voter.

maddie44 - 2021-07-24 20:06:00

maddie44 wrote:

OP isn't a National voter.

There you go, I am. Though very likely to move over to a National Act combination next time. Ironically though, OP said she was traditionally a National voter.

Edited by mulch_king at 8:10 pm, Sat 24 Jul

mulch_king - 2021-07-24 20:08:00

lakeview3 wrote:

we need to do more than demand a debate, we need to bring legal proceedings against the govt for undemocratic behaviour. National has enough lawyers can’t they do something? Or do they silently agree with it also…..

I love the way you say "we need" to do something, then expect someone else to do it for you.

sparkychap - 2021-07-24 20:12:00

mulch_king wrote:

There you go, I am. Though very likely to move over to a National Act combination next time. Ironically though, OP said she was traditionally a National voter.

I was. There are a lot of people like me, in the middle, just an average person who has worked hard to get what I have.

Unfortunately National is more loyal to who gives them money and it isn’t me because I don’t have enough spare and this is why they have lost support.

lakeview3 - 2021-07-24 20:16:00

sparkychap wrote:

I love the way you say "we need" to do something, then expect someone else to do it for you.

isn’t that why we vote for people? To represent us? Just so happens they are mostly all self centred liars.

lakeview3 - 2021-07-24 20:19:00

lakeview3 wrote:

isn’t that why we vote for people? To represent us? Just so happens they are mostly all self centred liars.

It was in their manifesto - I'm sure you read that and asked them about it at the time.

sparkychap - 2021-07-24 20:22:00

sparkychap wrote:

I love the way you say "we need" to do something, then expect someone else to do it for you.

Vote for a government and then want the opposition to sort out things you don't like your government doing. having debates and listening to people is democracy, something this current government seem to overlook continually trying to get things passed in a hurry with little or no consultation.

maddie44 - 2021-07-24 20:27:00

Now you understand maybe why the farmers are getting a bit annoyed. It is finally starting to hurt everyone else.

strathview - 2021-07-24 20:27:00

lakeview3 wrote:

I was. There are a lot of people like me, in the middle, just an average person who has worked hard to get what I have.

Unfortunately National is more loyal to who gives them money and it isn’t me because I don’t have enough spare and this is why they have lost support.

I don’t see that. National wanted to reduce the tax rate on income levels or rather inflation adjust and increase the threshold for GST for sole traders. Those measures would help a lower income earner such as myself.

heather902 - 2021-07-24 20:31:00

strathview wrote:

Now you understand maybe why the farmers are getting a bit annoyed. It is finally starting to hurt everyone else.

Oh yeah, so many people don't understand just how many changes and nonsense farmers are being put through, that was obvious by FB comments after their protest.

maddie44 - 2021-07-24 20:31:00

sparkychap wrote:

It was in their manifesto - I'm sure you read that and asked them about it at the time.

it was? Do you have a link to where I can find this please?

lakeview3 - 2021-07-24 20:33:00

heather902 wrote:

I don’t see that. National wanted to reduce the tax rate on income levels or rather inflation adjust and increase the threshold for GST for sole traders. Those measures would help a lower income earner such as myself.

National do nothing but tinker at the edges with their silly tax cut promises like that is all they have got. They sold us out as far as I am concerned and I won’t be duped by them again either.

Edited by lakeview3 at 8:38 pm, Sat 24 Jul

lakeview3 - 2021-07-24 20:34:00

lakeview3 wrote:

National do nothing but tinker at the edges with their silly tax cut promises like that is all they have got. They sold us out as far as I am concerned and I won’t be duped by them again.[/quote

I don’t care how you vote, and I don’t vote National but I don’t think they only represent the rich

heather902 - 2021-07-24 20:36:00

strathview wrote:

Now you understand maybe why the farmers are getting a bit annoyed. It is finally starting to hurt everyone else.

I do have a bit of sympathy for farmers but again they unfortunately have been their own worst enemy. Often it’s the really bad arrogant ones who ruin if for the rest. If they really want to stick it to the nation they should all just dump food for 2 weeks and make the wokesters in Wellington go without lattes for a bit.

lakeview3 - 2021-07-24 20:36:00

heather902 wrote:

[quote=lakev-
iew3]National do nothing but tinker at the edges with their silly tax cut promises like that is all they have got. They sold us out as far as I am concerned and I won’t be duped by them again.[/quote

I don’t care how you vote, and I don’t vote National but I don’t think they only represent the rich

well I do. They never used to be like that - or so I thought, probably i was deluded.

Look at all those pervy young men they recruited to be MPs. Very telling. Get rid of the old boys club type people and they might have a chance.

Edited by lakeview3 at 8:40 pm, Sat 24 Jul

lakeview3 - 2021-07-24 20:37:00

sparkychap wrote:

It was in their manifesto - I'm sure you read that and asked them about it at the time.

Interesting this little clause :
• Labour will ensure that major decisions about local democracy involve full participation of the local population from the outset. Examples of
these types of decisions include amalgamation or de-amalgamation, or major contracting out, privatisation, or reduction of services.

And yet as seen above #4 Labour have made it impossible for local government to have that public participation

Edited by maddie44 at 8:49 pm, Sat 24 Jul

maddie44 - 2021-07-24 20:48:00

lakeview3 wrote:

well I do. They never used to be like that - or so I thought, probably i was deluded.

Look at all those pervy young men they recruited to be MPs. Very telling. Get rid of the old boys club type people and they might have a chance.

No idea who you are talking about, I do think the tax rate on low income sole traders is excessive and probably puts quite a few people off being self employed

Edited by heather902 at 8:52 pm, Sat 24 Jul

heather902 - 2021-07-24 20:52:00

maddie44 wrote:

Interesting this little clause :
• Labour will ensure that major decisions about local democracy involve full participation of the local population from the outset. Examples of
these types of decisions include amalgamation or de-amalgamation, or major contracting out, privatisation, or reduction of services.

And yet as seen above #4 Labour have made it impossible for local government to have that public participation

full participation of local population from the outset? Well they failed on that one then didn’t they.

I have seen things like this before. Land purchased with the intention to put something there and not even telling the locals until after the land was purchased. Downright sneaky.

lakeview3 - 2021-07-24 21:06:00

heather902 wrote:

No idea who you are talking about, I do think the tax rate on low income sole traders is excessive and probably puts quite a few people off being self employed

todd barclay, jake bezzant, jlr……

lakeview3 - 2021-07-24 21:07:00

Councils with poor water management and infrastructure will vote - we're in!

Well managed councils will rush to vote for their well managed funds to subsidise the others.

In your dreams Minister Mahuta.

artemis - 2021-07-25 08:19:00

About time, I never knew the whole of NZ didn't have safe, PH neutral water until eh first time I moved out of Akld. How 3rd world! And the campylobacter in Hawkes Bay, lucky my mum always boiled and stored water in fridge for drinking. I had that once, and I never want it again.
People who are anti chlorine are no different to anti-vax.
Humans have a short collective memory....back in the day it was why people died of cholera, dysentery and typhoid.

lythande1 - 2021-07-25 08:31:00

lythande1 wrote:

About time, I never knew the whole of NZ didn't have safe, PH neutral water until eh first time I moved out of Akld. How 3rd world! And the campylobacter in Hawkes Bay, lucky my mum always boiled and stored water in fridge for drinking. I had that once, and I never want it again.
People who are anti chlorine are no different to anti-vax.
Humans have a short collective memory....back in the day it was why people died of cholera, dysentery and typhoid.

SOME councils…..and I don’t see why the rest of us should pay.

If people choose to live somewhere where the water is scarce then they should pay for it.

lakeview3 - 2021-07-25 08:34:00

Saw this this morning and thought it applies even in this case. If you buy the rhetoric and attempt at brainwashing around 3 waters…..

2020: If you believed they would introduce mandatory vaccine passports you were labeled a conspiracy theorist.

2021: If you oppose mandatory vaccine passports you are labeled a conspiracy theorist.

lakeview3 - 2021-07-25 08:37:00

lakeview3 wrote:

I think if many people knew these kinds of plans about water, indoctrination of our children, sex self ID, co governance etc etc then they wouldn’t have voted for them.

The problem is National was just so awful. They have got rid of some of the people who were holding them back, but their problem is they only represent the rich now. People like me, who traditionally voted for them won’t vote for them now because they have thrown my kids under the bus.

Indoctrination of our children? What is that in reference to?

pico42 - 2021-07-25 09:15:00

Rather than 'demand the debate' (which sounds bossy and entitled), the better way to do it, imho is to 'create the debate'.

Political entities are usually helpless in the face of locals. grass roots who get together and create the debate.....ie take the debate to the people, build up a group to keep putting the alternatives, contacting MPs etc and asking why these alternatives are not or have not been considered.

shanreagh - 2021-07-25 09:18:00

pico42 wrote:

Indoctrination of our children? What is that in reference to?

ministry of education changes and trying to get teachers to get kids to question their ‘privilege’.

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2105/S00229/govt-departmen
ts-teaching-white-privilege.htm

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/05/prime-minist
er-jacinda-ardern-shrugs-off-concerns-about-teaching-white-p
rivilege.html

Oh looks like the govt has deleted the original document…….Interesting

Edited by lakeview3 at 9:25 am, Sun 25 Jul

lakeview3 - 2021-07-25 09:19:00

lakeview3 wrote:

If this goes ahead looks like more rate rises on the cards

I hope every district council gives its ratepayers a chance to vote democratically whether we want this or not.

Have a listen to this for a bit of an idea of where the govt is goimg with this.

https://www.facebook.com/coastersclub/videos/141901079181102
8/?extid=TWT-UNK-UNK-UNK-AN_GK0T-GK1C

Ah I remember now, this was the guy whose council awarded the $7m construction of a waste water plant in Franz Joseph to a cake maker with no experience of such projects. No wonder he doesn't want someone else coming in and taking over this stuff....

Edited by sparkychap at 9:44 am, Sun 25 Jul

sparkychap - 2021-07-25 09:44:00

lakeview3 wrote:

Oh looks like the govt has deleted the original document…….Interesting

What original document?

sparkychap - 2021-07-25 09:46:00

shanreagh wrote:

Rather than 'demand the debate' (which sounds bossy and entitled), the better way to do it, imho is to 'create the debate'.

Political entities are usually helpless in the face of locals. grass roots who get together and create the debate.....ie take the debate to the people, build up a group to keep putting the alternatives, contacting MPs etc and asking why these alternatives are not or have not been considered.

We shouldn't have to demand or create a debate. The debate, submissions full disclosure of what is planned should be part of the process. This government is trying to push things through without full public consultation, shutting down opposing views and adding what they like as they like. Think BDM

maddie44 - 2021-07-25 11:43:00

lakeview3 wrote:

ministry of education changes and trying to get teachers to get kids to question their ‘privilege’.

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2105/S00229/govt-departmen
ts-teaching-white-privilege.htm

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/05/prime-minist
er-jacinda-ardern-shrugs-off-concerns-about-teaching-white-p
rivilege.html

Oh looks like the govt has deleted the original document…….Interesting

Gone from the link in that story but can still be found.
Critical Consciousness
Building critical consciousness means reflecting critically on the imbalance of power and resources in society, and taking anti-oppressive action to do something about it for the better. It means recognising white privilege, understanding racism, inequity faced by Māori and disrupting that status quo to strengthen equity
https://www.education.govt.nz/assets/Documents/our-work/Te-H
urihanganui/MOE19434-Te-Hurihunganui-Blueprint-4.pdf?r=1

maddie44 - 2021-07-25 12:02:00

maddie44 wrote:

We shouldn't have to demand or create a debate. The debate, submissions full disclosure of what is planned should be part of the process. This government is trying to push things through without full public consultation, shutting down opposing views and adding what they like as they like. Think BDM

Yes agree with this. Was thinking in the absence of debate then create it ourselves rather than demanding it.....

I guess it is in the wording and difference between 'demand' and 'create'.

BDM process was /is a shocker. I have a view that if it is worth doing, you should be able to take the electorate with you or at least create/acknowledge/ask for the debate to get information out there about why you are doing it.

Support BDM in spite of how they are doing it. The demos etc by those who think others wanting to discuss/consult should be stopped is called 'doing battle with one's own agenda'. Glorious phrase. .

shanreagh - 2021-07-25 12:03:00

maddie44 wrote:

Gone from the link in that story but can still be found.
Critical Consciousness
Building critical consciousness means reflecting critically on the imbalance of power and resources in society, and taking anti-oppressive action to do something about it for the better. It means recognising white privilege, understanding racism, inequity faced by Māori and disrupting that status quo to strengthen equity
https://www.education.govt.nz/assets/Documents/our-work/Te-H
urihanganui/MOE19434-Te-Hurihunganui-Blueprint-4.pdf?r=1[/qu
ote]

I don't have a problem with this...teaching people to think critically is always a winner in my view and as a society history is never static.

shanreagh - 2021-07-25 12:05:00

shanreagh wrote:

Yes agree with this. Was thinking in the absence of debate then create it ourselves rather than demanding it.....
.

Problem being if there is not full disclosure of what is being planned and we are only being told the bits the government want us to know, all that advertising on tv about clean water.... what is there to debate? We all want clean water.

maddie44 - 2021-07-25 12:21:00

maddie44 wrote:

We shouldn't have to demand or create a debate. The debate, submissions full disclosure of what is planned should be part of the process. This government is trying to push things through without full public consultation, shutting down opposing views and adding what they like as they like. Think BDM

The reality is that many of the people protesting and demanding "democracy" and the rights to consultation are the same ones that have never read central or government policy, never read or responded to consultation on their local councils Long Term Plans and express horror when their rates go up, like its some sudden surprise, when it's been in the TLP for ages!

sparkychap - 2021-07-25 13:06:00

sparkychap wrote:

The reality is that many of the people protesting and demanding "democracy" and the rights to consultation are the same ones that have never read central or government policy, never read or responded to consultation on their local councils Long Term Plans and express horror when their rates go up, like its some sudden surprise, when it's been in the TLP for ages!

True.

The ones who see the 'rights' end only and fail to recognise the 'responsibilities' end of being in a democracy.

Mind you, as Maddie44 says, this commenting is made much more difficult for individuals when Govts and local authorities action legislation or consents to land use change etc and make them without consultation.

shanreagh - 2021-07-25 13:47:00

shanreagh wrote:

True.

The ones who see the 'rights' end only and fail to recognise the 'responsibilities' end of being in a democracy.

Mind you, as Maddie44 says, this commenting is made much more difficult for individuals when Govts and local authorities action legislation or consents to land use change etc and make them without consultation.

Yes and in this particular case, information which has not been received at present would be supplied by government via DIA and sent to councils for consideration during August/September. with a response required by the end of September. Leaves very little time for full public consultation and participation on the complete plan.

maddie44 - 2021-07-25 14:10:00

sparkychap wrote:

The reality is that many of the people protesting and demanding "democracy" and the rights to consultation are the same ones that have never read central or government policy, never read or responded to consultation on their local councils Long Term Plans and express horror when their rates go up, like its some sudden surprise, when it's been in the TLP for ages!

You can read and respond all you like. It’s completely ignored anyway.

pcle - 2021-07-25 17:13:00

pcle wrote:

You can read and respond all you like. It’s completely ignored anyway.

unfortunately, like Johnsons

orphic1 - 2021-07-25 18:49:00

shanreagh wrote:

I don't have a problem with this...teaching people to think critically is always a winner in my view and as a society history is never static.

when has the NZ education system ever done that?

bitsnpieces2020 - 2021-07-25 20:37:00

For once I agree with the government; the councils (especially Auckland) have made a very expensive bureaucratic empire out of the water/ wastewater systems, and at the same time neglected maintenance and developing future capacity.
Can one dedicated authority do better? I think so.
And rates should be reduced because council staff can be cut, maybe.

masturbidder - 2021-07-26 17:04:00

masturbidder wrote:

For once I agree with the government; the councils (especially Auckland) have made a very expensive bureaucratic empire out of the water/ wastewater systems, and at the same time neglected maintenance and developing future capacity.
Can one dedicated authority do better? I think so.
And rates should be reduced because council staff can be cut, maybe.

youre only saying that because Auckland has huge water problems. You can pay for it and we will keep our water thanks. We are over subsidising Auckland.

lakeview3 - 2021-07-26 17:13:00

lakeview3 wrote:

youre only saying that because Auckland has huge water problems. You can pay for it and we will keep our water thanks. We are over subsidising Auckland.

I don't know where you are but Aucklanders probably paid for your roads, through NZ Transport (or whatever they call themselves now).

masturbidder - 2021-07-26 17:30:00