Hi, Im hoping someone might be able to point me in the right direction. We have a small rental cottage on the farm. Our tenant is great but we have quite strict requirements due to the rental being part of our own living space. It was 1 adult, 1 teen when they moved in and we always state the amount of occupants allowed, the rent was set well below market rates because its just 2 people ( we base it on that we provide water, vehicle numbers on the driveway that we have to maintain, general wear and tear is less, plus we often rent to people who are coming out of a difficult situation and have some cash flow problems in the begginning etc). A few weeks ago She asked if her sister could move in and I agreed. So all bedooms are filled. Recently Her Mum has sold up her own home and is now living in a housetruck. My tenant dropped a comment the other day that she has told her Mum she can park in her driveway while she finds her feet. Im not super excited about it but I can see that its unresonable to deny an 80 yr old a place to stay. So My question is. Is the house truck occupant now also considered a house occupant ? She will be using our driveway, water we provide, and I think we can assume regular use of the house in general. However she will technically be sleeping in the house truck. My tenant is awesome and Im confident she will approach me if the time comes. I feel though that a jump from 2 to 4 occupants is a lot and am wanting to review the rent. There are now 2 extra money earning adults so any increase should not really affect my tenant but it causes me stress to see my little cottage bursting at the seams. Thanks for your input !!

mllawn - 2021-06-15 17:19:00

I have no idea about the legal side but I am guessing that if you take them as a tenant then it’s the thin edge of the wedge, you are setting a precedent and the next house truck tenant might not be a lovely 80 year old lady...
(I think you might be seen as a soft touch since the sister is already allowed to stay)

Perhaps you can sort something that is a nice compromise for both parties by not charging rent for the mobile home (or having them as a long term tenant) but allow say 3 months “breathing space”.
I admire you for being kind but your stress levels seeing your little cottage bursting at the seams will soon overwhelm your kind heart and having all the extra use of your water, sewer system and wear and tear on the facilities.
Having a big, repurposed house truck in your drive and view every day that isn’t belonging to you or a family member might really grind your gears going forward.
Personally, it would be a no from me, unless you really need the extra income in which case I’d say go for it, but as the Romans would have said, “Festina Tarde”.
Best wishes and Good luck ????

lovelurking - 2021-06-15 18:04:00

I would be charging extra as the bathroom and kitchen are now going to be used more.

Who is coming next?

Sounds like the whole famdamily is there already lol. What happens when the sisters boyfriend moves in? Or the teens girlfriend/boyfriend?

They have changed the terms of the contract on you.

Not sure of the legal side, that’s just my take FWIW.

lakeview3 - 2021-06-15 18:12:00

I've never been in the position of having tenants or boarders. I do think however, that no matter how "lovely" your present tenant is, I think she's got a bit of a cheek just telling her mum that she can park the bus in the driveway and then informing you afterwards. I presume "mum" will be using some of the cottage facilities?. As the poster above pointed out, if it's already stressing you out maybe it's time to have a rethink. All the best.
ETA It would be a no from me, unless you need the money and are prepared to charge them more.

Edited by hound31 at 6:15 pm, Tue 15 Jun

hound31 - 2021-06-15 18:13:00

There are caravan parks where house trucks can park up for a small fee. There is a reason you have only two people people on your rental agreement stick to it. Your tenants might be nice but now they are just taking the mickey.

strathview - 2021-06-15 18:32:00

Hmm. That house truck might roll down a slippery slope….

Trust your instinct and say no.

sparkychap - 2021-06-15 18:39:00

sparkychap wrote:

Hmm. That house truck might roll down a slippery slope….

Trust your instinct and say no.

it will be slippery after the winter….all the dead grass and mud under the house truck…..washing lines….potted plants, then the lean to, the shed to store the gear….imagine if she wants to go in and out, diesel fumes, track marks…..seen, heard and smelt it all before…..

lakeview3 - 2021-06-15 19:04:00

strathview wrote:

There are caravan parks where house trucks can park up for a small fee. There is a reason you have only two people people on your rental agreement stick to it. Your tenants might be nice but now they are just taking the mickey.

exactly it’s a farm not a trailer park!

lakeview3 - 2021-06-15 19:05:00

An 80 year old living in a house truck must be fit and able at the moment but I would charge extra for it if you do let her stay as long as you have room. I have a lady living in a caravan (in the hay shed) on my place and it has worked out really well, it's over 10 years now since she arrived. She contributes towards power and a small rental as we work in together for other things.

Do you have somewhere away from the drive for her to park, perhaps closer to the cottage so the drive is left free? That's the part that would annoy me but if she's tucked away and contributes towards the rental I would give it a trial run and perhaps draw up a separate contract with her. She might find she doesn't want to stay there long anyway, most I know who have lived 'on the road' have given up by the time they reach mid 70s and moved back into houses. Getting in and out with arthritic joints causing problems helped make the decision for them. She will probably use part of the cottage, bathroom etc. so she does need to pay towards that.

kacy5 - 2021-06-15 19:06:00

kacy5 wrote:

An 80 year old living in a house truck must be fit and able at the moment but I would charge extra for it if you do let her stay as long as you have room. I have a lady living in a caravan (in the hay shed) on my place and it has worked out really well, it's over 10 years now since she arrived. She contributes towards power and a small rental as we work in together for other things.

Do you have somewhere away from the drive for her to park, perhaps closer to the cottage so the drive is left free? That's the part that would annoy me but if she's tucked away and contributes towards the rental I would give it a trial run and perhaps draw up a separate contract with her. She might find she doesn't want to stay there long anyway, most I know who have lived 'on the road' have given up by the time they reach mid 70s and moved back into houses. Getting in and out with arthritic joints causing problems helped make the decision for them. She will probably use part of the cottage, bathroom etc. so she does need to pay towards that.

I agree with you that's all reasonable if OP lets the housetruck stay. But the bit that would stick in my craw is the tenant telling OP that Mum's going to be parking in the drive, not asking. It's not their place to add tenants without permission given first if you see what I mean. Maybe it's me, but I take an instant dislike to people who push their luck and assume things like that.

hound31 - 2021-06-15 19:31:00

hound31 wrote:

I agree with you that's all reasonable if OP lets the housetruck stay. But the bit that would stick in my craw is the tenant telling OP that Mum's going to be parking in the drive, not asking. It's not their place to add tenants without permission given first if you see what I mean. Maybe it's me, but I take an instant dislike to people who push their luck and assume things like that.

no it’s not just you, people making those assumptions annoy me too.

lakeview3 - 2021-06-15 19:48:00

hound31 wrote:

I agree with you that's all reasonable if OP lets the housetruck stay. But the bit that would stick in my craw is the tenant telling OP that Mum's going to be parking in the drive, not asking. It's not their place to add tenants without permission given first if you see what I mean. Maybe it's me, but I take an instant dislike to people who push their luck and assume things like that.

The tenant has only 'dropped a comment' so far, it might never eventuate and OP can always say 'no' if the tenant asks permission for Mum to stay too. She hasn't said how long her Mum might be there, could be for a quick visit but, once again, it's OP's decision but she needs to make some money from it so a fee will have to be discussed before anything happens.

kacy5 - 2021-06-15 20:00:00

The Moms sold her house & has plenty of money.
The tenant hasn't even proposed, but has simply informed the Op that they are going to double the amount of tenants, plus a rather large house bus that will soon become a permanent fixture because it wont have a current rego or COF to allow it back onto the road.
The Mom may move into the house for convenience, leaving a housebus suitable for two, or three more people.

I doubt that the Mom would have sold the house if they didnt already have a place to move into ( the OP's).
Yep, next will be another car, or two, and a half, outside stuff, a lean to and or shed(s), the cat(s), dog(s) the bikes & the firewood.

Edited by marte at 9:32 pm, Tue 15 Jun

marte - 2021-06-15 21:30:00

marte wrote:

The Moms sold her house & has plenty of money.
The tenant hasn't even proposed, but has simply informed the Op that they are going to double the amount of tenants, plus a rather large house bus that will soon become a permanent fixture because it wont have a current rego or COF to allow it back onto the road.
The Mom may move into the house for convenience, leaving a housebus suitable for two, or three more people.

I doubt that the Mom would have sold the house if they didnt already have a place to move into ( the OP's).
Yep, next will be another car, or two, and a half, outside stuff, a lean to and or shed(s), the cat(s), dog(s) the bikes & the firewood.

It's an extra ONE person if the mother moves in. The landlady agreed to the sister so that's not the issue or she wouldn't have agreed.

mazalinas - 2021-06-15 22:01:00

Ok, thanks for your thoughts everyone. Some really nice and helpful responses. I was just sort of interested whether I have grounds to say that it’s another house occupant if I allow the truck to stay, in which case The rent would increase and conditions added regarding the vehicle itself. We’ve had 4-5 people before, it’s not ideal but we set the rent accordingly. I just put 2 because 2 moved in initially. I just always state the original number on the agreement to stop people moving in there whole extended family ( yes had that happen when I was brand new at this ????????) I have a good relationship with the tenant, she’s been there over a year now, this is just two things In Quick succession and I want to be prepared if it becomes a conversation I need to have.

Edited by mllawn at 10:53 pm, Tue 15 Jun

mllawn - 2021-06-15 22:49:00

That isn't a long tenancy, and imho waaay to soon for them to be asking for the level of changes they seem to require.

I wouldn't permit this for aesthetic reasons since any property with caravans, house trucks or similar temporary accommodation is an eyesore. Then there are potential safety issues (eg let's say 80yr/o is hospitalised and the truck cannot be moved quickly in a situation where an emergency vehicle requires access, will your insurance cover the gas cooker in the housetruck blowing up and setting fire to a fixed building..etc).

Rent isn't the issue so much as the encroachment, appearance, and change to upkeep which you hadn't agreed to. The automatic assumption that a HOUSE TRUCK in a driveway will be ok is particularly galling and not a good sign at all.

Edited by sweetgurl108 at 10:16 am, Wed 16 Jun

sweetgurl108 - 2021-06-16 10:15:00

Great post, sweetgurl.

I’ve changed my mind about being kind and allowing them to stay a few months.
I now think say NEVER to be on the property, and use your insurance company as the reason.
Say you made enquires and you’re not allowed to. Then you aren’t being the bitch and you’re not really telling lies. If you have a mortgage, insurance is compulsory in my opinion.
If Mom has lots of money, she can easily go and stay at a little camping ground somewhere and use their facilities.

lovelurking - 2021-06-16 10:29:00

strathview wrote:

There are caravan parks where house trucks can park up for a small fee. There is a reason you have only two people people on your rental agreement stick to it. Your tenants might be nice but now they are just taking the mickey.

Will an 80 y.o. "soon "find her feet" or be looking hard in that situation? Will probably want to move into the house during Winter and then becomes established. Do you think that, after 3 months, any of them will be keen for change?

amasser - 2021-06-16 10:35:00

sweetgurl108 wrote:

That isn't a long tenancy, and imho waaay to soon for them to be asking for the level of changes they seem to require.

I wouldn't permit this for aesthetic reasons since any property with caravans, house trucks or similar temporary accommodation is an eyesore. Then there are potential safety issues (eg let's say 80yr/o is hospitalised and the truck cannot be moved quickly in a situation where an emergency vehicle requires access, will your insurance cover the gas cooker in the housetruck blowing up and setting fire to a fixed building..etc).

Rent isn't the issue so much as the encroachment, appearance, and change to upkeep which you hadn't agreed to. The automatic assumption that a HOUSE TRUCK in a driveway will be ok is particularly galling and not a good sign at all.

Insurance is something I hadnt thought about. Thank you.

mllawn - 2021-06-16 10:52:00

Thanks again, Im glad I asked. Again, not really looking for 'should I let her or not' answers. There are other circumstances at play that Im not putting on a msg board for public consumption.

I have researched my butt off and so far cannot find a definitive answer as to a) Can the person in house truck regarded as a house occupant at some point b) if so, what time frame passed would assume she has moved beyond guest and is now an occupant.

Edited by mllawn at 11:00 am, Wed 16 Jun

mllawn - 2021-06-16 10:59:00

mllawn wrote:

Thanks again, Im glad I asked. Again, not really looking for 'should I let her or not' answers. There are other circumstances at play that Im not putting on a msg board for public consumption.

I have researched my butt off and so far cannot find a definitive answer as to a) Can the person in house truck regarded as a house occupant at some point b) if so, what time frame passed would assume she has moved beyond guest and is now an occupant.[/quote

Ask your lawyer is my best advice and tell him the whole story...

lovelurking - 2021-06-16 11:22:00

The Mum has made a decision to sell her house and live in a housetruck .... she's not 'finding her feet' as your tenant has eluded to, she's made a lifestyle choice. They just thought you'd have less objections if they presented it that way to you ;)

This is not something I would agree to personally.

desi1969 - 2021-06-16 12:10:00

sweetgurl108 wrote:

That isn't a long tenancy, and imho waaay to soon for them to be asking for the level of changes they seem to require.

I wouldn't permit this for aesthetic reasons since any property with caravans, house trucks or similar temporary accommodation is an eyesore. Then there are potential safety issues (eg let's say 80yr/o is hospitalised and the truck cannot be moved quickly in a situation where an emergency vehicle requires access, will your insurance cover the gas cooker in the housetruck blowing up and setting fire to a fixed building..etc).

Rent isn't the issue so much as the encroachment, appearance, and change to upkeep which you hadn't agreed to. The automatic assumption that a HOUSE TRUCK in a driveway will be ok is particularly galling and not a good sign at all.

As in OP's post the cottage is a farm cottage so it's not as if it's a small town section, I am thinking there will be plenty of room around the cottage or on the property so there should be no need to park in the drive. The lady should have her own insurance for the truck but I would make enquiries with an Insurance Co if any damage it may cause is covered by her LL insurance or ask what do they suggest the truck lady should have to cover her property if she agrees to let her stay.

kacy5 - 2021-06-16 13:01:00

Also what happens if the 80 year old mum gets sick and can’t drive anymore? Does she move into the cottage? Does the motorhome become a permanent fixture?

Nah shut them down now by not allowing it.

lakeview3 - 2021-06-16 13:20:00

Might need to have a long extension cord and water hose if not parked close to the farm cottage though....

lovelurking - 2021-06-16 13:23:00

mllawn wrote:

Recently Her Mum has sold up her own home and is now living in a housetruck. My tenant dropped a comment the other day that she has told her Mum she can park in her driveway while she finds her feet. Im not super excited about it but I can see that its unresonable to deny an 80 yr old a place to stay.!

No it's not unreasonable at all. What IS unreasonable is your tenant telling her mum she can park in the driveway when it does not belong to her.
She had no right telling her mum without asking for your permission first.
I like to help people however in this situation I would be saying no as it's not a part of the tenancy agreement
I'd also be telling the tenant she should have asked you first when it's your property.

shelleigh - 2021-06-16 13:50:00

mllawn wrote:

I have researched my butt off and so far cannot find a definitive answer as to a) Can the person in house truck regarded as a house occupant at some point b) if so, what time frame passed would assume she has moved beyond guest and is now an occupant.

It's quite simple.

The mother is absolutely an occupant. No question.

The daughter is the tenant. The definition of a tenancy is:

tenancy, in relation to any residential premises, means the right to occupy the premises (whether exclusively or otherwise) in consideration for rent;

Then:

premises includes —
(a) any part of any premises; and
(b) any land and appurtenances, other than facilities; and
(c) any mobile home, caravan, or other means of shelter placed or erected upon any land and intended for occupation on that land

So any "maximum occupants" stated on the Tenancy Agreement absolutely also applies to any housebus with mum in.

Thanks for attending my TED Talk.

sparkychap - 2021-06-16 14:31:00

strathview wrote:

There are caravan parks where house trucks can park up for a small fee. There is a reason you have only two people people on your rental agreement stick to it. Your tenants might be nice but now they are just taking the mickey.

Wise words indeed. My nephew allowed his father-in-law a few months grace to park his caravan on their property till he made it roadworthy. That was 5 years ago and now, even though they have moved, that damn caravan, and its inhabitant, has moved with them, despite it supposedly not being roadworthy.

Evict your tenants. There are plenty more who will happily respect your wishes and the tenancy agreement.

buzzy110 - 2021-06-16 14:38:00

Really, when I am renting out a propety, the tenant can do what they want, I don't care how many people live there as long as they don't wreck the place. The house is their home whilst they are paying the rent, and as long as they are not trashing it, it is their choice who visits, who stays, who leaves or whatever. I'm not the house police.

Feel free to raise the rent, but it shouldn't really be based on how many people are living there, it is for the house. You are renting a house, not rooms out.

Some my disagree on my views, and feel free to do so, and even say I'm wrong, but please be civil when doing so. You will make yourself more creditable if you are polite in your statements.

Edited by tygertung at 2:54 pm, Wed 16 Jun

tygertung - 2021-06-16 14:54:00

tygertung wrote:

Really, when I am renting out a propety, the tenant can do what they want, I don't care how many people live there as long as they don't wreck the place. The house is their home whilst they are paying the rent, and as long as they are not trashing it, it is their choice who visits, who stays, who leaves or whatever. I'm not the house police.

Feel free to raise the rent, but it shouldn't really be based on how many people are living there, it is for the house. You are renting a house, not rooms out.

Some my disagree on my views, and feel free to do so, and even say I'm wrong, but please be civil when doing so. You will make yourself more creditable if you are polite in your statements.

A family of 4 with 2 kids will cause more wear and tear (unclaimable) than a single person living there. Entirely fair to charge based on occupancy.

Thanks very much, have an awesome day.

sparkychap - 2021-06-16 14:57:00

Perhaps, although a single person may be more inclined to have wild parties than a family with children?!

tygertung - 2021-06-16 15:04:00

tygertung wrote:

Perhaps, although a single person may be more inclined to have wild parties than a family with children?!

Have you ever been to a kids birthday party....?

sparkychap - 2021-06-16 15:12:00

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kiwilandchch - 2021-06-16 16:29:00

Hi there - Legally the House Truck owner will be an occupant of the cottage. The renter should have asked. You have agreed to a verbal variation to the original agreement but that does not mean it actually stands. Having been a landlord and had the 'thin edge of the wedge' issue I would seriously stick to your agreement. If this goes to court for any reason you being nice won't help. The older lady is not your problem and as has been pointed out why does she need to get on her feet when she has just sold a house? Sounds fishy frankly. Stick to your agreement. Good luck.

rangidave - 2021-06-16 17:15:00

buzzy110 wrote:

Wise words indeed. My nephew allowed his father-in-law a few months grace to park his caravan on their property till he made it roadworthy. That was 5 years ago and now, even though they have moved, that damn caravan, and its inhabitant, has moved with them, despite it supposedly not being roadworthy.

Evict your tenants. There are plenty more who will happily respect your wishes and the tenancy agreement.

Thank you for the vote buzzy110. I have seen this problem first hand with a friend and it didn't end well. And yes by all means use insurance as the reason because my friend lost her cottage because the caravan didn't have an electrical certification and when they plugged into the cottage it started an electrical fire in the cottage.

strathview - 2021-06-16 17:26:00

It's not stated if the "house bus" has self-contained ablution/sanitary facilities (toilet and shower), so if it has none, then there'll be an extra person using the cottages' toilet and shower. Even if it DOES have "self contained facilities", this is on a farm, presumably with a septic tank, so where does the grey water and sewerage get emptied? (That's why there's a charge at camping grounds - to use the "facilities"),

I suspect that OP, if she allows this house bus on the property, will instead of "getting along swimmingly" with the current tenant and teen, may find the teen (and who knows who else) in the housebus, the 80 yr old in the cottage, and the whole thing becoming a giant mess with OP "going through the motions"...

Stand firm, OP - you're being taken advantage of, this is just the buttering up process thus far....

Edited by autumnwinds at 6:32 pm, Wed 16 Jun

autumnwinds - 2021-06-16 18:31:00

Sister and mother and no doubt more people will be arriving!!!!!

megan109 - 2021-06-16 18:40:00

Also, if she becomes a tenant or occupant does the LL have to ensure the house truck is up to HH standards?

princess52 - 2021-06-16 23:35:00

This message was deleted.

roysmrs - 2021-06-17 18:04:00

You kept the rent low (due to two people) and Im sure you pay the water out of the kindness of your heart.Im also sure the water bill has risen and thats enough of a reason to increase the rent based on the fact there is twice more people using the water you pay for.I had to do that once though the tenant was happy to use a month's rent on water (per month) when I was paying for it and I had to put a stop to my kindness and ask for more rent or use less water.
And the insurance thing is a helping thing too,you wouldnt want your house burning down and the firetrucks having no access to put the fire out.Suggest that her mother get rid of the housetruck and stay in your rental at a added cost or find somewhere suitable to park.
First things first,if allowable,do a house inspection of your rental property to get the full story then decide what needs to be decided.Ask the right questions and remind your tenant that they are paying below market rate and get water free.

nesta129 - 2021-06-17 19:05:00

mllawn wrote:

Thanks again, Im glad I asked. Again, not really looking for 'should I let her or not' answers. There are other circumstances at play that Im not putting on a msg board for public consumption.

I have researched my butt off and so far cannot find a definitive answer as to a) Can the person in house truck regarded as a house occupant at some point b) if so, what time frame passed would assume she has moved beyond guest and is now an occupant.

Have you thought of getting some legal advice? Most CAB's offer this for free. I think you better to deal with it quickly before it becomes a 'norm'.

omaria - 2021-06-17 21:40:00

nesta129 wrote:

You kept the rent low (due to two people) and Im sure you pay the water out of the kindness of your heart.Im also sure the water bill has risen and thats enough of a reason to increase the rent based on the fact there is twice more people using the water you pay for.I had to do that once though the tenant was happy to use a month's rent on water (per month) when I was paying for it and I had to put a stop to my kindness and ask for more rent or use less water.
And the insurance thing is a helping thing too,you wouldnt want your house burning down and the firetrucks having no access to put the fire out.Suggest that her mother get rid of the housetruck and stay in your rental at a added cost or find somewhere suitable to park.
First things first,if allowable,do a house inspection of your rental property to get the full story then decide what needs to be decided.Ask the right questions and remind your tenant that they are paying below market rate and get water free.

All of this, OP.

And, as per my previous post #36, be practical and don't underestimate the effect of these 2 extra people (sister, 80 yr old mother) on your domestic septic tank.... Only those who have had to deal with septic tank disasters will know just how bad this can get, and how quickly it can occur - and the costs incurred, if a new tank becomes necessary.....

autumnwinds - 2021-06-18 00:06:00

A good point with the insurance. DOes the housebus have a current electrical WOF? If not, it can't plug into the house power, whcih they will do so. If it overloads circuits, then insurance will be a problem.
If it is all legit, the caravan type plugs in campig grounds are 16A. If they plug into a 3 pin plug, they will need to spend the $200 or so on the proper adapter lead and circuit breaker that limits the current to the 10A from the plug, otherwise it is an illegal connection.
If you do let it happen, charge more rent, adn layout, in writing, the rules and consequences of not following them such as breach notices and eviction.
Given the problems with getting rid of troublesome tenants, I would give it a lot of thought and research before I asaid it was ok. I see th e 80yo in the house to be cared for - that is why she sold her house. Teenager in the housebus. IS that a situation that is ok with you?

geoff_m - 2021-06-23 10:06:00

Do they have pets as well?

marte - 2021-06-23 17:13:00