He has a new baby due in July and after months of looking was starting to get desperate. Him and his partner are renting a house for 1 year after which it will be demolished to make way for new housing. There is no heating, insulation, smoke alarms or extractor fans and he wont say anything to the landlord. They are in their 20s. I am angry that they are being taken advantage of

jen51 - 2021-05-07 20:25:00

An argument could be mounted that it is the way it should be ie the freedom to contract without government interference.

johnston - 2021-05-07 20:41:00

jen51 wrote:

He has a new baby due in July and after months of looking was starting to get desperate. Him and his partner are renting a house for 1 year after which it will be demolished to make way for new housing. There is no heating, insulation, smoke alarms or extractor fans and he wont say anything to the landlord. They are in their 20s. I am angry that they are being taken advantage of

It's a crappy situation. They are desperate for a place to stay, the landlord won't invest in a house that is only going to be demolished. The landlord might be charging a cheaper rent perhaps?

apollo11 - 2021-05-07 20:50:00

They could lodge a TT claim and force the landlord to fix up the property - he cannot evict them. Otherwise just go for exemplary damages.

Or anonymous complaint to MBIE compliance team…

sparkychap - 2021-05-07 20:54:00

Not that long ago you suppiled your own source of heating. Iinsulation, smoke alarms and extractor fans were either unheard of in homes, or in owner built homes only. And everyone survived healthily.

lyma1 - 2021-05-07 20:54:00

Ride it out for the 9 months then don't pay the rent and at tenancy tribunal say the house was not suitable to live in and they might get there 9 months rent refunded. I think someone who rented a garage not suitable that was paying maybe 200 a week got it all refunded.

ash4561 - 2021-05-07 20:57:00

lyma1 wrote:

Not that long ago you suppiled your own source of heating. Iinsulation, smoke alarms and extractor fans were either unheard of in homes, or in owner built homes only. And everyone survived healthily.

Not always "healthily". Without insulation homes can be very damp, and black mold can cause major health issues.

kitty179 - 2021-05-07 21:02:00

lyma1 wrote:

Not that long ago you suppiled your own source of heating. Iinsulation, smoke alarms and extractor fans were either unheard of in homes, or in owner built homes only. And everyone survived healthily.

Not at all, plenty of good research on the link between such housing and increased hospitalization for respiratory illnesses.

sparkychap - 2021-05-07 21:05:00

Not sure what you are looking for as there are no questions, but if it were my son and I didn't have other options to help him out (ie I couldn't take him in / he was in another city etc), then I would advise him to .... accept the rental if he is desperate, and document everything sub-standard with photographic proof etc. However keep looking for something better. Then if (or hopefully when) he gets offered another rental, (before signing another TA) ask the landlord to release him from the FTT. The landlord will undoubtedly try hold your son to the FTT, so at that stage I would threaten a Tenancy Tribunal application, pointing out all the breaches, the relevant RTA sections and the associated fines. Hopefully the LL will buckle, but also make sure the LL puts the acceptance of the tenancy termination in writing.

desi1969 - 2021-05-07 21:40:00

The one year exemption from insulation has run out for house demolition for almost one year now.

Contact Tenancy Tribunal.

Edited by ian1990 at 9:46 pm, Fri 7 May

ian1990 - 2021-05-07 21:44:00

sparkychap wrote:

They could lodge a TT claim and force the landlord to fix up the property - he cannot evict them. Otherwise just go for exemplary damages.

Or anonymous complaint to MBIE compliance team…

Won't work. The healthy homes Act has exemptions for houses due to be demolished within a year. In here somewhere... https://www.tenancy.govt.nz/healthy-homes/about-the-healthy-
homes-standards/

Just maybe it was the best place he could afford. So be it.

tony9 - 2021-05-07 21:45:00

The general exemptions that exempt a landlord from complying with the healthy homes standards in relation to a rental property are:

1. If the landlord intends to demolish or substantially rebuild the rental property and has applied for the relevant resource or building consent before the healthy homes compliance date. This exemption will last for up to 12 months from the healthy homes compliance date. It may end earlier in certain circumstances, for example if the consent lapses or is terminated, or the application for consent is refused. If requested, the landlord will need to provide evidence that they have applied for the relevant resource or building consent.

fxx99 - 2021-05-07 21:47:00

tony9 wrote:

Won't work. The healthy homes Act has exemptions for houses due to be demolished within a year. In here somewhere... https://www.tenancy.govt.nz/healthy-homes/about-the-healthy-
homes-standards/

Just maybe it was the best place he could afford. So be it.

The clock started 01/07/2019 , any Landlord now is in big trouble?

ian1990 - 2021-05-07 21:50:00

The member deleted this message.

sparkychap - 2021-05-07 22:31:00

Is it better than being homeless? Because if he can't find anything else, then that's the other option.
If it was me I would go buy my own smoke alarms.

annie17111 - 2021-05-07 22:38:00

About $20 worth of bubble-wrap over most of the windows will keep the house warmer. You spray the window and the plastic with water and it stays there for years.

trade4us2 - 2021-05-07 22:53:00

jen51 wrote:

He has a new baby due in July and after months of looking was starting to get desperate. Him and his partner are renting a house for 1 year after which it will be demolished to make way for new housing. There is no heating, insulation, smoke alarms or extractor fans and he wont say anything to the landlord. They are in their 20s. I am angry that they are being taken advantage of

If I was desperate enough to take the house and it was only for a year I wouldn't be saying anything to the landlord either. We lived for years without insulation, extractor fans etc. and although it was nice to build a house with all them in it I still remember that rental and how we made do while listening to rats in the roof. It was an old farmhouse but we too were desperate at the time. We bought a heater, hung old blankets at the windows without curtains and opened windows.

kacy5 - 2021-05-07 23:23:00

This message was deleted.

hooserat - 2021-05-08 00:13:00

jen51 wrote:

He has a new baby due in July and after months of looking was starting to get desperate. Him and his partner are renting a house for 1 year after which it will be demolished to make way for new housing. There is no heating, insulation, smoke alarms or extractor fans and he wont say anything to the landlord. They are in their 20s. I am angry that they are being taken advantage of

Pretty much our house. If there's no insulation you don't need extractor fans. Smoke alarms are $10 each! 2nd hand heaters can be really cheap.
I reared my son's in our house perfectly well. Had it over 40 years now.
Must be a great feeling for them not having to live in a tent (at least for one year!). I hope the rent is reasonable, but apart from that it sounds like a blessing. I wouldn't be saying anything unless they have a good tent. (Well, even if they have a good tent really).

bryalea - 2021-05-08 05:31:00

sorry, but this is exactly why he spent months looking for a house. Tenant inspects older house house, accepts it, moves in and then starts complaining.

There is too much risk involved now in providing older houses. Would you rather this landlord had kept the house empty?

kittylittle - 2021-05-08 07:17:00

kittylittle wrote:

sorry, but this is exactly why he spent months looking for a house. Tenant inspects older house house, accepts it, moves in and then starts complaining.

There is too much risk involved now in providing older houses. Would you rather this landlord had kept the house empty?

No evidence here the tenant is complaining, concerned father is worried they have been taken advantage of.

sparkychap - 2021-05-08 07:21:00

Tony9 raises an interesting point, but whilst the commentary talks about "This exemption will last for up to 12 months from the healthy homes compliance date.", section 31 of the Residential Tenancies (Healthy Homes Standards) Regulations 2019 doesn't reference the healthy homes compliance date, just the "grace period" defined as:

"grace period means the period of 12 months beginning on the date of commencement of the tenancy"

So technically the demolition work much commence within a year, so the property cannot be let for a year (assuming its a 12 month FTT), so the exception here can't apply.

https://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2019/0088/
latest/LMS148303.html

Edited by sparkychap at 7:37 am, Sat 8 May

sparkychap - 2021-05-08 07:37:00

Most of the Healthy Homes standards are not yet required for tenancies entered into before 1 July 2021. So jen51 should check before getting too angry.

There are various options for both parties, though who knows what the Tenancy Tribunal will decide if asked.

For example, the tenants can apply to the Tenancy Tribunal to break the fixed term tenancy or to upgrade the property as required (insulation and smoke alarms only at this point). The landlord could let the tenants know that they were unaware of the rules, the rental is not up to standard (insulation and smoke alarms only) and very sorry will have to 'very reluctantly' apply to the Tenancy Tribunal to end the tenancy

Or tenants could buy a couple of smoke alarms and a heater and wait out the year. If they want to leave early, if say they find something better, then good chance the landlord will agree to breaking the fixed term in the circumstances.

Apparently there are motels readily available.

artemis - 2021-05-08 08:12:00

I'd go with#9 keep looking for better but keep details, photos etc so they can break the FTT.

coolnzmum - 2021-05-08 09:48:00

bryalea wrote:

Pretty much our house. If there's no insulation you don't need extractor fans. Smoke alarms are $10 each! 2nd hand heaters can be really cheap.
I reared my son's in our house perfectly well. Had it over 40 years now.
Must be a great feeling for them not having to live in a tent (at least for one year!). I hope the rent is reasonable, but apart from that it sounds like a blessing. I wouldn't be saying anything unless they have a good tent. (Well, even if they have a good tent really).

This. My own home has crappy insulation, no extractor fans . I do have a smoke alarm but if I was him they’re cheap enough to buy himself, I have a heat pump at one end of the house I use for a couple of months a year but even then only a couple of hours at night so could easily do with a heater (as I did pre heat pump). My bedroom I don’t bother as once I’m in bed I’m warm.

Lots of rentals are nicer than my own home!

It’s not an ideal situation but to me would depend on if I was getting a reduction in rent, how good the house was at hearing anyway and if it wasn’t mouldy and how desperate I was. It’s better than no home?

christin - 2021-05-08 10:15:00

Just buy a couple of heaters and move on after 9 months, or move out and pay more rent, if the house is auckland or north then it's not that cold anyway, good ventilation is needed, stop drafts, if cold south island then another problem, best to move to Queensland, better pay warmer conditions, plenty will be leaving for aussie the way it's going here, each to their own.

msigg - 2021-05-08 10:35:00

When people say "I lived in/raised my children in a crappy house and we're all fine" is anecdate, not data. It's also survivor bias. The reality is that children living in cold, damp, housing are more likely to be hospitalised for conditions related to poor housing. "More likely" doesn't mean it will definitely happen, it just means it's more likely to happen than if they lived in warm, dry housing.

The house is required to have insulation and smoke alarms, under the older regulations. It's not required to meet the HHS yet, and won't have to while the son is living there (because it won't be a new tenancy after 1 July 2021). But the lack of insulation and smoke alarms is a breach.

And yes, the landlord should be stung for it. Putting in insulation will be a few thousand dollars, smoke alarms less than $100. I'm guessing that the rent for the year your son will be there will be more than a few thousand dollars in total. The owner is planning to demolish in a year or so, so is hoping to get a bit of rental income over the period before demolition - but they should consider whatever income they get over the period to be a bonus, not rental return.

In ordinary circumstances I'd probably recommend buying some smoke alarms and waiting until the end of the tenancy to take the breaches to the tenancy tribunal, so as to avoid having an awkward relationship with the landlord for half the tenancy; but these are not ordinary circumstances. Your son has a baby due in July - the middle of winter - and that baby needs to be somewhere that at least has a chance of being kept warm. If there's no insulation, it will be near impossible to achieve that. Take the tenancy, and then make the landlord put the insulation in anyway.

The only circumstance in which I'd suggest the landlord should be let off putting in insulation is if the rent over the year is going to be less than the cost of putting in insulation. But even if the insulation is for some reason super expensive - say $6k - that's $115/week for a year. I'm going to hazard a guess that your son and his partner are paying more than $115/week in rent.

N.B. remind your son that if they do take it to the TT, they can ask to have their names suppressed if they are "substantially successful" in their claim, which will mean future landlords can't find their names in the TT records and reject them as potential trouble makers.

luteba - 2021-05-08 10:49:00

Buy the insulating film for the windows, itis cheap, cheap and does work.
Make sure you let the LL know as the film does use double sided tape and might pull off the paint/polyurethane of the window surrounds if they have to take it off before moving.

Make sure the curtains are good, with linings and you can add a detachable lining as well. Encourage them to draw curtains across before it gets dark and to open them in the morning to take advantage of natural warming.

As there are no extractor fans then make sure not to dry clothes inside.
Check to make sure that there is a proper outside line and if possible rig up some outside but sheltered lines in carports, garages etc. Buy and install their own smoke alarms. Buy good heaters with thermostats. You can ask on Freecycle and may be able to obtain them for nothing.

Ventilate, ventilate, ventilate. If bathroom has a window, buy a securistay and keep it slightly open. Also the kitchen. You can shut these if the temperature drops overnight or a storm comes through. .

The rentals I had in the early days of flatting/marriage had no insulation, heat pumps or extractor fans but we knew how to use curtains and ventilate. I am sure this knowledge can be relearned

Door snakes and this kind of window seal is excellent for casement windows.

https://shop.sustaintrust.org.nz/collections/draught-ventila
tion/products/v-profile-weather-strip

For double hung windows make sure that the windows shut carefully and the locking mechanism is used. The locking mechanism pulls the two windows together. If there is still a draught coming through where the windows meet you can put a heavy draught excluder (ie filled with sand or kitty litter) or a wheat bag across.

If there are no carpets then you can often find large pieces on freecycle or TM. Or cover with rugs.

Only do this though if your relations know that the rent is lower than the current rate for the area.

Keep looking for another rental.

Edited by shanreagh at 11:14 am, Sat 8 May

shanreagh - 2021-05-08 11:06:00

Also worth checking with the council if there is a consent -
/ application for the demolition

sparkychap - 2021-05-08 11:09:00

At least he should put up a smoke alarm and make sure everyone can get out several ways in an emergency. No amount of money makes up for the loss of human life.

sweetgurl108 - 2021-05-08 12:20:00

ash4561 wrote:

Ride it out for the 9 months then don't pay the rent and at tenancy tribunal say the house was not suitable to live in and they might get there 9 months rent refunded. I think someone who rented a garage not suitable that was paying maybe 200 a week got it all refunded.

Never suggest to not pay the rent, with the new law rent arrears is one of the way the LL can get them out

sheryl13 - 2021-05-08 21:37:00

Curtains [drapes] not too good? Check to find out if there is a curtain bank in the area.

coralsnake - 2021-05-09 00:40:00

How the F did we survive the 60's & 70's. No insulation, extractor fans, heat pumps. Wore a blanket to watch TV, went to bed with woollen blankets. Mum wiped the condensation off the windows in the morning. No mould, good ventilation and never got sick.Can't even remember the kids giving us the daycare lurgy, yet got it from the grandkids twice.
Oh, that's right, we used to get up early in the morning and go to school & work.

blueviking - 2021-05-09 08:34:00

Yes, no one ever died of respiratory diseases in the 60s and 70s.

https://figure.nz/chart/i01a0sx5LV45oZuV-EOuYm3mpfwx1j3RP

Also see #27

sparkychap - 2021-05-09 08:46:00

blueviking wrote:

How the F did we survive the 60's & 70's. No insulation, extractor fans, heat pumps. Wore a blanket to watch TV, went to bed with woollen blankets. Mum wiped the condensation off the windows in the morning. No mould, good ventilation and never got sick.Can't even remember the kids giving us the daycare lurgy, yet got it from the grandkids twice.
Oh, that's right, we used to get up early in the morning and go to school & work.

Exactly. People maybe spend too much time inside condensating their homes these days. When we grew up during daylight hours the adults spent their days at work for dad or doing in-out sort of work for Mums. A lot of gardening went on, cloths washing and hanging outside. No one sat inside for hours or days. Kids played outside after school and weekends or families did "things" outside except if it was torrentially raining, which doesn't actually happen all that often.

bryalea - 2021-05-09 08:49:00

sparkychap wrote:

Yes, no one ever died of respiratory diseases in the 60s and 70s.

https://figure.nz/chart/i01a0sx5LV45oZuV-EOuYm3mpfwx1j3RP

Also see #27

Chronic respiratory diseases in those days (70's/80's) were likely more linked to smoking (which was widespread) and things like asbestos use which wasn't even a "thing" back then. Not because of house heating (or lack of), black mold etc I expect.

Edited by bryalea at 8:56 am, Sun 9 May

bryalea - 2021-05-09 08:53:00

bryalea wrote:

Chronic diseases in those days were likely more linked to smoking (which was widespread) and things like asbestos use which wasn't even a "thing" back then. Not because of house heating (or lack of), black mold etc I expect

exactly the same trends for pneumonia. There’s more research showing the link in children, who generally didn’t smoke.

Edited by sparkychap at 8:59 am, Sun 9 May

sparkychap - 2021-05-09 08:56:00

sparkychap wrote:

exactly the same trends for pneumonia. There’s more research showing the link in children, who generally didn’t smoke.

Chronic diseases are long standing. Children in those era's lived in houses with adults that smoked. 2nd hand smoke is now known to be worse that direct smoking so yes, those children did smoke essentially, but worse. It could be expected that in itself with no inside smoking these days this would have a direct improvement on results in recent years.

bryalea - 2021-05-09 09:13:00

bryalea wrote:

Chronic diseases are long standing. Children in those era's lived in houses with adults that smoked. 2nd hand smoke is now known to be worse that direct smoking so yes, those children did smoke essentially, but worse. It could be expected that in itself with no inside smoking these days this would have a direct improvement on results in recent years.

So you're agreeing that kids did fall ill then from respiratory diseases?

sparkychap - 2021-05-09 09:23:00

Why would a landlord upgrade a house that will be demolished? How much is the rent, and is the rent lower due to standard of building? Did they know about issues when they signed lease? Do the have a tenancy agreement or just a verbal agreement? Maybe they can come home and stay with you, they're your kids after all. So many questions but no, just blame the landlord.

mulch_king - 2021-05-09 09:31:00

sparkychap wrote:

So you're agreeing that kids did fall ill then from respiratory diseases?

Of course they did, but not so much from chronic ones. They don't get chronic emphysema like a long term smoker does, but children everywhere get respiratory diseases. The chart was however from chronic respiratory diseases. A more recent lesser number now are not necessarily because of better housing. There are many factors involved. People that own their own houses don't necessarily have any better housing at all. Some are the same houses they had in the 80's. Not one of my 3 children have been in hospital with a respiratory disease, chronic nor otherwise. Only renters have better housing.

bryalea - 2021-05-09 09:47:00

sparkychap wrote:

exactly the same trends for pneumonia. There’s more research showing the link in children, who generally didn’t smoke.

You were implying children don't spoke... but they did. And still do when carted around in cars with smoking parents. Much so much less so than in the 70's and 80's.

bryalea - 2021-05-09 09:50:00

bryalea wrote:

You were implying children don't spoke... but they did. And still do when carted around in cars with smoking parents. Much so much less so than in the 70's and 80's.

No I wasn't. I actually said "generally didn't smoke".

Sure smoking is a factor, but so is insulation and dry housing as many studies have demonstrated..

sparkychap - 2021-05-09 09:55:00

This message was deleted.

vintage_betty - 2021-05-09 16:05:00

''University of Otago public health professor Philippa Howden-Chapman said overcrowding was the single biggest housing-related cause of poor mental and physical health.''

Landlords should be issuing 14 day notices if occupancy limit in the tenancy agreement is breached. Think of the children.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/renting/122907853/e
lection-2020-vanilla-housing-policies-unlikely-to-ease-auckl
and-rental-crowding--economist

artemis - 2021-05-09 17:05:00

This message was deleted.

kittycatkin - 2021-05-09 18:51:00

We put the 3M insulation film on most of our windows about three winters ago and were very impressed at how much less condensation we got. The tape does lift paint off though but we're going to be repainting so aren't worried.
Also replaced some thin curtains that were here when we moved in with ones from the Warehouse with block out lining and definitely noticed the difference.
Highly recommend using a dehumidifier as makes a huge difference especially if the place is damp.

shelleigh - 2021-05-09 18:58:00

vintage_betty wrote:

Except the ones that you know...died in house fires

Or of respiratory illnesses. This reminds me of those silly posts along the lines of how we all survived being kids in the 1950s when there were no seat belt rules, there was asbestos and lead in stuff and we basically ran riot with no thought for health and safety with no ill effects. Always makes me smile because I'm sure many kids died from accidents and illnesses related to all that back then.

Edited by kitty179 at 7:00 pm, Sun 9 May

kitty179 - 2021-05-09 18:58:00

kitty179 wrote:

Always makes me smile because I'm sure many kids died from accidents and illnesses related to all that back then.

Nice post?

mulch_king - 2021-05-09 19:05:00

shelleigh wrote:

We put the 3M insulation film on most of our windows about three winters ago and were very impressed at how much less condensation we got. The tape does lift paint off though but we're going to be repainting so aren't worried.
Also replaced some thin curtains that were here when we moved in with ones from the Warehouse with block out lining and definitely noticed the difference.
Highly recommend using a dehumidifier as makes a huge difference especially if the place is damp.

awesome... tape up some when you rent an AirBNB .. , keep in mind the owner has a mortgage to pay if your in any way tempted to complain about what a sh**hole it was..

next car you rent hopefully is a POS, youll happily fit some headlight bulbs,.. get the breaks fixed ?, hell even if it doesnt have a WOF , .. better than walking though ,. right ?

youd complain but youd get a lecture on how much the car rental company is in debt and how thats entirely your responsibility !...

should I go on ....ever stayed in a hotel ??

Edited by thornton1961 at 8:16 pm, Sun 9 May

thornton1961 - 2021-05-09 20:07:00