Hey team,

We've recently moved into a new home, it's a 90's brick/plaster home. We were across the risks, and the fact it was plaster was baked into the price.

Prior to making an offer, we asked RE agent if the vendors were aware of any moisture ingress to their home while they were here. Reply via RE agent (in email) was no, and building/thermal imaging report came back clear.

Soon after we moved in, we had a leak through the gutter/soffit (due to poor design). I've now remedied this design, and the timber is again showing as dry, so no long term damage it seems.

When chatting with a neighbor, they mentioned the vendors had a lot of issues with leaks in the same area, which frankly has me fuming.

Being that we've not suffered a loss we can point at, and the evidence to contradict theirs is second hand, and preferably wouldn't want to bring neighbor into it, what potential is there to seek recompense here?

Likely will reach out to lawyer early next week for counsel, but keen for thoughts/advice ahead of that :)

citydude - 2021-04-23 16:47:00

How do you know the vendors lied?

sparkychap - 2021-04-23 17:00:00

citydude wrote:

Hey team,

We've recently moved into a new home, it's a 90's brick/plaster home. We were across the risks, and the fact it was plaster was baked into the price.

Prior to making an offer, we asked RE agent if the vendors were aware of any moisture ingress to their home while they were here. Reply via RE agent (in email) was no, and building/thermal imaging report came back clear.

Soon after we moved in, we had a leak through the gutter/soffit (due to poor design). I've now remedied this design, and the timber is again showing as dry, so no long term damage it seems.

When chatting with a neighbor, they mentioned the vendors had a lot of issues with leaks in the same area, which frankly has me fuming.

Being that we've not suffered a loss we can point at, and the evidence to contradict theirs is second hand, and preferably wouldn't want to bring neighbor into it, what potential is there to seek recompense here?

Likely will reach out to lawyer early next week for counsel, but keen for thoughts/advice ahead of that :)

Perhaps surprisingly it is reasonably common. You have rights against the vendor. Your solicitor will advise the same and if they do not, change lawyers.

Did the agent disclose the property may have weathertightness issues? If not you may have rights against them too.

johnston - 2021-04-23 17:02:00

sparkychap wrote:

How do you know the vendors lied?

- We have it in writing they don't know about any leak/moisture issues while they were here
- Neighbour has told us they had significant issues with leaks/moisture in the same area we've found, and were actively working to fix (tradies etc)

citydude - 2021-04-23 17:05:00

johnston wrote:

Perhaps surprisingly it is reasonably common. You have rights against the vendor. Your solicitor will advise the same and if they do not, change lawyers.

Did the agent disclose the property may have weathertightness issues? If not you may have rights against them too.

Hey, no they did not. To his credit, the vendor told him it didn't (he copied and pasted their response).
Thanks, look forward to seeing what solicitor has to say :)

citydude - 2021-04-23 17:07:00

citydude wrote:

- We have it in writing they don't know about any leak/moisture issues while they were here
- Neighbour has told us they had significant issues with leaks/moisture in the same area we've found, and were actively working to fix (tradies etc)

Thanks - sorry missed that the agent cut and pasted the vendors email.

As Johnston notes, you may have a case, but did you also get your own building report done?

sparkychap - 2021-04-23 17:10:00

citydude wrote:

Hey, no they did not. To his credit, the vendor told him it didn't (he copied and pasted their response).
Thanks, look forward to seeing what solicitor has to say :)

good that you have it in writing. Wish you all the best.

I wonder would the neighbour do an affidavit supporting his statement? He should probably detail how many times and what actions he observed in his statement along with approximate dates and if he can remember any of the tradespeople who were called in to fix it.

lakeview3 - 2021-04-23 17:12:00

citydude wrote:

Hey, no they did not. To his credit, the vendor told him it didn't (he copied and pasted their response).
Thanks, look forward to seeing what solicitor has to say :)

The action against the agent would be via the REA. At face value, a breach of 10.7 of the Real Estate Agents Act (Professional Conduct and Client Care) Rules 2012 and likely other rules. Depending on the agent's role you may ask them to contribute to your cost of remedying. You can have parallel proceedings.

If you didn't obtain a building report that might lower an award but it does not remove liability of the vendor or agent. The agent cannot hide behind the vendor.

johnston - 2021-04-23 17:43:00

citydude wrote:

Soon after we moved in, we had a leak through the gutter/soffit (due to poor design). I've now remedied this design, and the timber is again showing as dry, so no long term damage it seems.

Did you note any historical damage or recent repairs while you were working in the area? That would be the tell... Vendors lie, buyers lie and so do sticky beak neighbours.

superdave0_13 - 2021-04-23 17:48:00

sparkychap wrote:

Thanks - sorry missed that the agent cut and pasted the vendors email.

As Johnston notes, you may have a case, but did you also get your own building report done?

Hey, yes we did thanks, building and moisture. No concerns, but this room did have higher moisture reading than other rooms (but still a good bit below threshold)

citydude - 2021-04-23 17:50:00

lakeview3 wrote:

good that you have it in writing. Wish you all the best.

I wonder would the neighbour do an affidavit supporting his statement? He should probably detail how many times and what actions he observed in his statement along with approximate dates and if he can remember any of the tradespeople who were called in to fix it.

Yea, honest preference is not to ask neighbour to be involved, they had good relationship with them, and we're getting along well, he dropped it in a random conversation when he saw the work I'd been doing.

citydude - 2021-04-23 17:51:00

citydude wrote:

- We have it in writing they don't know about any leak/moisture issues while they were here
- Neighbour has told us they had significant issues with leaks/moisture in the same area we've found, and were actively working to fix (tradies etc)

I think the neighbor is a liar and just has it in for the vendor what sort of neighbor would tell the new purchaser that. I think your in for trouble with that neighbor and it won't be long before they are throwing rocks at your car.

ash4561 - 2021-04-23 17:52:00

superdave0_13 wrote:

Did you note any historical damage or recent repairs while you were working in the area? That would be the tell... Vendors lie, buyers lie and so do sticky beak neighbours.

No historical damage, recent reno of course.... And the pitch is too tight in corner of roof space to fully inspect....

citydude - 2021-04-23 17:52:00

Thanks all for thoughts and feedback, definitely talking to Solicitor next week, but welcome any other thoughts :)

citydude - 2021-04-23 17:53:00

What has it cost you to remedy. I doubt the time spent and risk of not getting all costs back would not be worth bothering.

ash4561 - 2021-04-23 17:54:00

citydude wrote:

Hey, yes we did thanks, building and moisture. No concerns, but this room did have higher moisture reading than other rooms (but still a good bit below threshold)

This looks like it was all good when you bought it to me.
Do you think the neighbor is more creditable than your builder?

Edited by ash4561 at 6:06 pm, Fri 23 Apr

ash4561 - 2021-04-23 17:57:00

ash4561 wrote:

What has it cost you to remedy. I doubt the time spent and risk of not getting all costs back would not be worth bothering.

That's the interesting bit, it cost me under $1000 to re-route guttering to prevent a recurrence, and there's no obvious 'loss' to us. I'm just interested to know what recompense/penalty may be available due to their deceit...

citydude - 2021-04-23 18:06:00

citydude wrote:

That's the interesting bit, it cost me under $1000 to re-route guttering to prevent a recurrence, and there's no obvious 'loss' to us. I'm just interested to know what recompense/penalty may be available due to their deceit...

You can only recover your actual costs from the vendor.

johnston - 2021-04-23 18:11:00

I would say they have to reimburse you your loss of $1000. Possible they pay your solicitors fees. I doubt you will get payment for your emotional stress and you have to win the case to get the $1000 and your solicitors fees. You wont get your time that will be well more than the $1000 and there is doubt there was a previous problem as your builder said all good. I think you should write the $1000 off and find there new place and throw a brick through the window.

ash4561 - 2021-04-23 18:11:00

You could just ask them to pay $1000 but they will not pay that as it makes them look guilty and then you might come back in a few years time for $100,000 for a new problem.

ash4561 - 2021-04-23 18:17:00

citydude wrote:

Yea, honest preference is not to ask neighbour to be involved, they had good relationship with them, and we're getting along well, he dropped it in a random conversation when he saw the work I'd been doing.

I hear you there but the problem is if there are any other problems, to have it in writing gives you much more power should any other events come to light later on.

He is your neighbour now so it’s his best interests for him to also get on with you. At the very least, ask him who did the remedial work and maybe you could then get them to put it in writing that they have worked on it. At least then you have something to prove the vendor did not disclose this issue.

lakeview3 - 2021-04-23 18:23:00

ash4561 wrote:

I think the neighbor is a liar and just has it in for the vendor what sort of neighbor would tell the new purchaser that. I think your in for trouble with that neighbor and it won't be long before they are throwing rocks at your car.

that’s a bit OTT don’t you think?

lakeview3 - 2021-04-23 18:24:00

ash4561 wrote:

I think the neighbor is a liar and just has it in for the vendor what sort of neighbor would tell the new purchaser that. I think your in for trouble with that neighbor and it won't be long before they are throwing rocks at your car.

Hey, disagree, this was a flippant comment in a conversation based on the work they'd seen me doing. Understand vendor and them had a great relationship (and had seen that when they popped in, they stopped to chat etc)

citydude - 2021-04-23 18:26:00

Well if its that great a relationship is it worth destroying it putting the neighbor against them. Will the neighbor go against them.
Most people will believe your builder. But here is another thing you could go against your builder for the $1000 might be an easier option, you paid him good money and he did not find the problem. Ask him to refund what you paid him for the report. No matter who is right or wrong its not worth the bother against any of them unless you have nothing else to do.

ash4561 - 2021-04-23 18:38:00

lakeview3 wrote:

that’s a bit OTT don’t you think?

I was only joking I think the whole lot of them are liars.

ash4561 - 2021-04-23 18:39:00

How are you planning to prove there was moisture ingress?

heather902 - 2021-04-23 19:02:00

heather902 wrote:

How are you planning to prove there was moisture ingress?

Have photos/video of where it came inside.

But yes, not worth chasing if re-imbursement is all that may be possible.

citydude - 2021-04-23 21:07:00

citydude wrote:

Have photos/video of where it came inside.

But yes, not worth chasing if re-imbursement is all that may be possible.

yes - you don’t get damages for hurt feelings, I’m afraid.

sparkychap - 2021-04-23 21:18:00

citydude wrote:

Have photos/video of where it came inside.

But yes, not worth chasing if re-imbursement is all that may be possible.

Well there could be a licence at steak as well.

superdave0_13 - 2021-04-23 21:24:00

superdave0_13 wrote:

Well there could be a licence at steak as well.

well done or medium rare?

lakeview3 - 2021-04-23 21:32:00

The member deleted this message.

marte - 2021-04-23 23:36:00

A lot of the leaky building problem is the way the walls are sealed up. to hide problems.
Most residential situations only allow non-invasive inspections/ moisture testing during pre-purchase inspections. Invasive testing would quickly determine the state of the interiors of walls etc. making any prospective quickly aware of problems.
A car engine car be bore scoped by taking a spark plug out and a replacement engine might only be a few thousand, determined in part by the scope inspection.

Yet houses and buildings worth mega bucks quite often have no inspection ports in the wall to allow easy access to determine the state of the interior cavities of the walls.

From the leaky apartment program recently, one wonders if the machines that check the reinforcing in concrete should be checking the concrete pads in houses prior to sale to see how much reinforcing is in the pad.

I wonder how many purchasers if they end up with a bad leaker, seal up the walls and then flip the property onto the next mug who does not do any due diligence prior to purchase?

Edited by serf407 at 11:49 pm, Fri 23 Apr

serf407 - 2021-04-23 23:44:00

What exactly do you want recompense for? You had a building and moisture report done that said no concerns. You have it in writing that the vendor wasn't aware of any problems. Your costs are under $1,000. All you are riding on is a throwaway comment from the neighbour.

Going to a lawyer and trying to get recompense (for what?) will likely end up costing you more than the $1,000 you have spent.

rhys12 - 2021-04-24 03:30:00

lakeview3 wrote:

well done or medium rare?

Haha neither. Lavish 3 course claimable meals are all but off the table for agents according to the IRD.

superdave0_13 - 2021-04-24 06:08:00

rhys12 wrote:

What exactly do you want recompense for? You had a building and moisture report done that said no concerns. You have it in writing that the vendor wasn't aware of any problems. Your costs are under $1,000. All you are riding on is a throwaway comment from the neighbour.

Going to a lawyer and trying to get recompense (for what?) will likely end up costing you more than the $1,000 you have spent.

The only realistic civil option is to recover the $1,000 via the Disputes Tribunal. As I said above, you can only recover the actual loss. Damages are (usually) not punitive.

I would also lodge a complaint against the agent.

Edited by johnston at 6:46 am, Sat 24 Apr

johnston - 2021-04-24 06:45:00

superdave0_13 wrote:

Haha neither. Lavish 3 course claimable meals are all but off the table for agents according to the IRD.

lol and DON’T forget the coffee every morning! I mean they couldn’t POSSIBLY a make a quick instant from the pams granular they got from the supermarket before they left home like the rest of us plebs!

lakeview3 - 2021-04-24 07:12:00

sparkychap wrote:

How do you know the vendors lied?

When chatting with a neighbor, they mentioned the vendors had a lot of issues with leaks in the same area, which frankly has me fuming.

this

lythande1 - 2021-04-24 08:16:00

lythande1 wrote:

When chatting with a neighbor, they mentioned the vendors had a lot of issues with leaks in the same area, which frankly has me fuming.

this

yes I know but was trying to confirm how the OP knew it was the vendor that had lied.

sparkychap - 2021-04-24 08:22:00

'Thank goodness we have got that area of concern up in the guttering fixed up. We don't have to worry or even think about it any more.'

brouser3 - 2021-04-24 08:50:00

sparkychap wrote:

yes I know but was trying to confirm how the OP knew it was the vendor that had lied.

I know of several local disputes each involving several hundreds of thousand dollars to over a million.

In one case the vendor denied any knowledge of previous issues. He rather lost credibility when the repairer uncovered date stamped material on the offending works that showed the work had been done during his ownership.

Edited by johnston at 8:52 am, Sat 24 Apr

johnston - 2021-04-24 08:51:00

What I’m getting at is confirming it was the vendor that had lied and not the agent ????. It wasn’t clear at first they the agent had forwarded it cut and paste the vendors email.

sparkychap - 2021-04-24 08:58:00

I wonder also if the original building inspection / moisture testing was provided to prospective purchasers?

sparkychap - 2021-04-24 09:00:00

sparkychap wrote:

What I’m getting at is confirming it was the vendor that had lied and not the agent ????. It wasn’t clear at first they the agent had forwarded it cut and paste the vendors email.

I got that. My post was to illustrate how common disputes of this nature are and how in one case the vendor wasn't able to continue to deny knowledge.

johnston - 2021-04-24 09:51:00

If I couldn't get $1,000 out of the agent here I would vote Greens next election.

johnston - 2021-04-24 09:54:00

I'm still struggling to see how the Vendors lied, If the gutter was in fact poor design and the Vendors ignored a leak, there would be water ingress. They clearly have attended to gutter issues and the house is not damaged. Pretty sure gutter maintenance is a fairly standard *thing*. We clear and check the gutters at least once a year.

heather902 - 2021-04-24 10:03:00

citydude wrote:

Hey, no they did not. To his credit, the vendor told him it didn't (he copied and pasted their response).
Thanks, look forward to seeing what solicitor has to say :)

The agent asked the vendor if there were any weathertightness issues and the vendor said no and copied and pasted this response to the purchaser. The agent appeared honest and would not of known and followed the procedure of asking the vendor and sent the vendors response to the purchaser.
The builder didn't pull anything apart so their report is accurate to what they inspected.
I think the neighbor misunderstood or misinterpreted what went on as the vendor has said there was no weather problems and the neighbor is not party to any of this just nosey and gossiping .
I think the problem developed the day after the purchaser bought it and no one is to blame and the $1000 is just routine repairs and maintenance.

ash4561 - 2021-04-24 13:48:00

heather902 wrote:

I'm still struggling to see how the Vendors lied, If the gutter was in fact poor design and the Vendors ignored a leak, there would be water ingress. They clearly have attended to gutter issues and the house is not damaged. Pretty sure gutter maintenance is a fairly standard *thing*. We clear and check the gutters at least once a year.

Yes I think the vendor was up the ladder by that spot attending to the gutter and put no new dated materials in or done anything other than routine gutter work unless theirs evidence of any other repairs so routine maintenance clean leaves out of that spot where the gutter overflowed and was unaware of any other issue in that spot. Is there any sign of work done by the vendor in that spot?

ash4561 - 2021-04-24 13:59:00

From my bitter experience, a grand, just write it off. not worth the blood pressure increase and agro.

kenw1 - 2021-04-24 14:02:00

citydude wrote:

- We have it in writing they don't know about any leak/moisture issues while they were here
- Neighbour has told us they had significant issues with leaks/moisture in the same area we've found, and were actively working to fix (tradies etc)

If you could find these tradies and they will confirm they worked in that spot you can get your $1000 from the vendor at disputes tribunal.

ash4561 - 2021-04-24 14:26:00

citydude wrote:

- We have it in writing they don't know about any leak/moisture issues while they were here
- Neighbour has told us they had significant issues with leaks/moisture in the same area we've found, and were actively working to fix (tradies etc)

So ask the neighbour if he/she is willing to confirm that in writing or to provide you with witness evidence. If they say "no" then forget it. If they say "OK" then approach the vendor for damages (which you need to have detailed in writing first). Black & White stuff.

tegretol - 2021-04-24 18:41:00