Hi, I am a bit confused. My son's landlord sent an email stating that they are giving my son 90 days notice as they are putting the home on the market in a few weeks.

However, the new rules, if I am understanding them right says that they can only give notice if they intend to put the home on the market within 90 days after the end of the 90 days notice?

I've studied the tenancy website but it appears to give different answers on different pages.

>>>The owner is putting the property on the market within 90 days after the termination date.

Yet in other bits it talks about open homes and stuff like that. So can or cant they put it on the market in the next 90 days and try open homes, or what?

The terminology is confusing.

The tenancy is not fixed - so if they did sell it with tenants in situ does that mean the purchaser can only purchase tenants in situ or not since it is not a fixed tenancy?

I have knowledge from this as a prior landlord but that's a few years ago and its a whole new kettle of fish. I'm not even entirely sure that the notification email is written correctly based on what I read. I will ring the Tenancy Services but I expect that cant be done before Tuesday.

My son has not responded to or acknowledged the email received about two days ago. I understand the email can be considered received within 4 working days, but easter public holidays and weekend are not considered working days, are they? Or has the Mon-fri being working days gone out the window?

Any help in the meantime, or anything else to help to assume they can put it on the market now with tenants etc that would be appreciated. I'll keep reading in the meantime. Thank you. The area is Tauranga if anyone has a nice home/apartment available and/or a warehouse or workshop/type space with/without 'live and work' although I know they are scarce there.

Thank you for any help, particularly on the 90-day issue. What happens if worst case they cant find another home? (I cant see it happening but scarcity would be the only reason not bad tenants)

raven-and-blade - 2021-04-02 12:28:00

This message was deleted.

hooserat - 2021-04-02 13:57:00

Tell them to buy the house from the landlord , then they don’t need to move.

toyboy3 - 2021-04-02 14:21:00

Thanks, they would if it was suitable but with an expanding business the workshop area isn't large enough. Have been looking to move since Jan anyhow so its not a big deal. Yes, I understand what vacant possession means :) :)

They will find something I am sure - there are things available for rent now and they have exc references so they are keen to go as soon as something pops up best suited for the business and them both :)

I had a look at the house/land to buy - it'd be a good investment but I have my eyes on some land elsewhere - unfortunately too far away too be of help to him :)

Thanks again.

raven-and-blade - 2021-04-02 14:50:00

My understanding of the change is as follows, but also depends on type of tenancy etc.
1) - Selling the Property with Tenant Remaining
- Notify tenant of property going on the market for sale - no required notice
period simply a letter along the lines of "Hey Zac, we confirm 12 Smith St is
going on the market for sale, we will be in touch to organise details with you
around how we can manage this process together"
- Work through the sale and open home process with the tenant and in
conjunction with the property manager
- Provide the tenant with a 90-day termination notice, only once the property sale is unconditional and if the new owner requires vacant possession

2) Selling the Property Empty

- Provide the tenant with a 90-day termination notice for the purpose of
marketing the property for sale empty (periodic tenancy)
- Wait until the tenant has vacated before you can market the property for sale.
Any form of marketing for the property when this type of notice is given cannot occur until the tenant has vacated.

paysanne - 2021-04-02 14:53:00

There are advantages in tenants and owner agreeing on open homes etc. For the tenant, this is especially the case if they want to leave before the 90 days termination notice is up, as then they have to give 28 days notice.

If the tenants don't leave the landlord can apply to the Tenancy Tribunal for an eviction order. If granted, probably will be, that will be a serious black mark for tenants.

artemis - 2021-04-02 15:22:00

ah that makes sense, it wasn't really clear which applied to what.
The tenancy is standard periodic - not fixed.

-----
What they received was an email (not a letter - no receipt for sending) stating (### for privacy purposes)
-----

Dear J & K

This letter is to inform you that the owners have decided to sell the property at #### #### road.

The owner hereby gives you 90 days’ notice plus service time to end your tenancy. 

During this notice, the property will be put on the market for sale.
Your vacate date is set at 28 June 2021.
We are looking to put the property on the market within the next few weeks, so we will work with you to achieve this.   

As soon as I have any further information I will be in touch.
You need to continue paying your weekly rent as per usual. 

Regards
Private Landlord

-----

Anything incorrect in that? That's it, no contact details, nothing at all, weird the landlord was writing in third person. The first sentence mentions a property for sale.

The second one mentions the tenancy but does not explicitly say ## #### Street.

**Does this mean they have not explicitly stated the address of tenancy therefore is not correct as the two first sentences, being separate paragraphs do not really join together if you wanted to be picky or is it wrong?

**They are first time landlords who have no qualms enter the home with NO warning, turning up whenever and whenever expecting to be let in, have spoken unnecessarily with bad words at tenants/friends because they were frustrated with the costs of keeping the property maintained (not damaged).

Obviously everything will be worked to a happy outcome for all as best and quickly as possible, but we do want to ensure everything is understood correctly from both points of view to end up with a happy tenant with a happy reference and a happy landlord. :)

raven-and-blade - 2021-04-02 15:24:00

Hmm, 90 days notice is only allowed if they've already sold or intend to put th property on the market AFTER the 90 days notice.

Don't think they can give 90 days notice and put on the market now.

(2) A landlord may terminate a periodic tenancy by giving at least 90 days’ notice if—
(a) the premises are to be put on the market by the owner within 90 days after the termination date for the purposes of sale or other disposition; or
(b) the owner is required, under an unconditional agreement for the sale of the premises, to give the purchaser vacant possession; or

sparkychap - 2021-04-02 15:37:00

artemis wrote:

There are advantages in tenants and owner agreeing on open homes etc. For the tenant, this is especially the case if they want to leave before the 90 days termination notice is up, as then they have to give 28 days notice.

If the tenants don't leave the landlord can apply to the Tenancy Tribunal for an eviction order. If granted, probably will be, that will be a serious black mark for tenants.

And possibly serious damage created.

bryshaw - 2021-04-02 15:50:00

sparkychap wrote:

Hmm, 90 days notice is only allowed if they've already sold or intend to put th property on the market AFTER the 90 days notice.

Don't think they can give 90 days notice and put on the market now. ...

Can if agreed between the parties. The notice indicated a conversation coming up..

artemis - 2021-04-02 16:02:00

sparkychap wrote:

Hmm, 90 days notice is only allowed if they've already sold or intend to put th property on the market AFTER the 90 days notice.

Don't think they can give 90 days notice and put on the market now.

(2) A landlord may terminate a periodic tenancy by giving at least 90 days’ notice if—
(a) the premises are to be put on the market by the owner within 90 days after the termination date for the purposes of sale or other disposition; or
(b) the owner is required, under an unconditional agreement for the sale of the premises, to give the purchaser vacant possession; or

Agreed. The owners can't market the property during the notice period and must be listed to sell within 90 days after the vacate date.

superdave0_13 - 2021-04-02 16:28:00

They have Been given notice of 90 days and can market the property - best not to waste time on here and get on with looking for a new property

alfa13 - 2021-04-02 16:39:00

artemis wrote:

Can if agreed between the parties. The notice indicated a conversation coming up..

Should have had the conversation before issuing a contradictory and unlawful notice, then...

sparkychap - 2021-04-02 17:12:00

alfa13 wrote:

They have Been given notice of 90 days and can market the property - best not to waste time on here and get on with looking for a new property

NO they can't.

But on the basis that the LL is obviously a prat, they'd be best off getting away from them anyway. Or hang on for some fun and games maybe damages for unlawful acts.

sparkychap - 2021-04-02 17:13:00

superdave0_13 wrote:

Agreed. The owners can't market the property during the notice period and must be listed to sell within 90 days after the vacate date.

Only option is for them to withdraw the notice and list property for sale now, or in 90 days time.

sparkychap - 2021-04-02 17:14:00

This message was deleted.

kittycatkin - 2021-04-02 19:36:00

kittycatkin wrote:

Who'd buy a house that had tenants in it who wouldn't be leaving for three months or more ?

The buyer would have to find somewhere for three months, as they'd have to leave the house they'd just sold if they'd sold one.

The government have no bloody idea.

Settlement dates would coincide!

smallwoods - 2021-04-02 19:49:00

kittycatkin wrote:

Who'd buy a house that had tenants in it who wouldn't be leaving for three months or more ?

The buyer would have to find somewhere for three months, as they'd have to leave the house they'd just sold if they'd sold one.

The government have no bloody idea.

On top of that most pre approvals for finance are only valid for 3 months

familiadude1 - 2021-04-02 19:55:00

familiadude1 wrote:

On top of that most pre approvals for finance are only valid for 3 months

Most sensible people confirm finance as a condition to making an offer.

sparkychap - 2021-04-02 20:01:00

sparkychap wrote:

Most sensible people confirm finance as a condition to making an offer.

That does not really make sense.

Frequently finance at an acceptable rate is a condition of sale.

However the last two offers we made had no conditions at all.

tony9 - 2021-04-02 20:49:00

tony9 wrote:

That does not really make sense.

Frequently finance at an acceptable rate is a condition of sale.

However the last two offers we made had no conditions at all.

What doesn't make sense?

Most people make offers subject to acceptable finance. They then have x weeks to confirm their finance for the contract to be executed.

Sometimes people make their offers without conditions, but to do so without confirming finance first if a very risky strategy.

Therefore pre-approved finance time limits aren't relevent to this situation.

sparkychap - 2021-04-02 21:00:00

familiadude1 wrote:

On top of that most pre approvals for finance are only valid for 3 months

The three month wait is between the unconditional date and settlement date, The house is already technically sold and the finance has already been confirmed. Best practice is 100 days.

superdave0_13 - 2021-04-02 21:08:00

The clueless Labour government have made life difficult and expensive for both owners and tenants. Selling is a valid reason for 90 day notice. Good luck with the search for a new rental. With the new taxes coming in rents will be going up by $100+pw so maybe banding together and buying might be a cheaper option?

Edited by pcle at 9:11 pm, Fri 2 Apr

pcle - 2021-04-02 21:10:00

pcle wrote:

The clueless Labour government have made life difficult and expensive for both owners and tenants. Selling is a valid reason for 90 day notice. Good luck with the search for a new rental. With the new taxes coming in rents will be going up by $100+pw so maybe banding together and buying might be a cheaper option?

You can still issue a 90 day notice and sell. Not sure what you're whinging about.

sparkychap - 2021-04-02 21:13:00

sparkychap wrote:

What doesn't make sense?

Most people make offers subject to acceptable finance. They then have x weeks to confirm their finance for the contract to be executed.

What you said "Most sensible people confirm finance as a condition to making an offer"

That means the lending institution will commit to lending without knowing the actual details of the property - they won't.

But your second comment above is correct.

tony9 - 2021-04-02 21:36:00

tony9 wrote:

What you said "Most sensible people confirm finance as a condition to making an offer"

That means the lending institution will commit to lending without knowing the actual details of the property - they won't.

How would they not know the details of the property?

sparkychap - 2021-04-02 21:42:00

raven-and-blade wrote:

ah that makes sense, it wasn't really clear which applied to what.
The tenancy is standard periodic - not fixed.

-----
What they received was an email (not a letter - no receipt for sending) stating (### for privacy purposes)
-----

Dear J & K

This letter is to inform you that the owners have decided to sell the property at #### #### road.

The owner hereby gives you 90 days’ notice plus service time to end your tenancy. 

During this notice, the property will be put on the market for sale.
Your vacate date is set at 28 June 2021.
We are looking to put the property on the market within the next few weeks, so we will work with you to achieve this.   

As soon as I have any further information I will be in touch.
You need to continue paying your weekly rent as per usual. 

Regards
Private Landlord

-----

Anything incorrect in that? That's it, no contact details, nothing at all, weird the landlord was writing in third person. The first sentence mentions a property for sale.

The second one mentions the tenancy but does not explicitly say ## #### Street.

**Does this mean they have not explicitly stated the address of tenancy therefore is not correct as the two first sentences, being separate paragraphs do not really join together if you wanted to be picky or is it wrong?

**They are first time landlords who have no qualms enter the home with NO warning, turning up whenever and whenever expecting to be let in, have spoken unnecessarily with bad words at tenants/friends because they were frustrated with the costs of keeping the property maintained (not damaged).

Obviously everything will be worked to a happy outcome for all as best and quickly as possible, but we do want to ensure everything is understood correctly from both points of view to end up with a happy tenant with a happy reference and a happy landlord. :)

You may be over-thinking this situation a tad.

melagray - 2021-04-02 22:17:00

The member deleted this message.

brouser3 - 2021-04-03 00:08:00

sparkychap wrote:

Hmm, 90 days notice is only allowed if they've already sold or intend to put th property on the market AFTER the 90 days notice.

Don't think they can give 90 days notice and put on the market now.

(2) A landlord may terminate a periodic tenancy by giving at least 90 days’ notice if—
(a) the premises are to be put on the market by the owner within 90 days after the termination date for the purposes of sale or other disposition; or
(b) the owner is required, under an unconditional agreement for the sale of the premises, to give the purchaser vacant possession; or

As per 2a, the tenant leaves within 90 days. In the meantime the seller may have changed their mind about selling or their circumstances may have changed. So they decide not to sell. Is that allowed? And how would 2b apply if the property is empty before marketing begins? Automatically there will be vacant possession, so 2b appears redundant.

Edited by committed at 9:13 am, Sat 3 Apr

committed - 2021-04-03 09:10:00

Taking a step back, all these rules around rentals are seriously complicating numerous transactions. The intentions may be good - warm, dry homes, more secure tenure, more FHBs - but are they working?

And do escalating numbers and costs for social and emergency housing offer a tiny clue?

artemis - 2021-04-03 09:58:00

committed wrote:

As per 2a, the tenant leaves within 90 days. In the meantime the seller may have changed their mind about selling or their circumstances may have changed. So they decide not to sell. Is that allowed?

Yes, its allowed, BUT the landlord would need to be able to demonstrate the reasons for the change subject to a claim to the TT under 60AA. If the landlord can't convince the adjudicator there was a valid reason for the change, they face exemplary damages up to $ 6,500.

committed wrote:

And how would 2b apply if the property is empty before marketing begins? Automatically there will be vacant possession, so 2b appears redundant.

If the property is vacant, then there's no need to give anyone notice. D'uh.

sparkychap - 2021-04-03 10:24:00

melagray wrote:

You may be over-thinking this situation a tad.

Yes, its obvious this is either an amateur, incompetent landlord, or they simply have no concern for their tenants rights.

Maybe landlords should be tested before they can run a residential rental business?

sparkychap - 2021-04-03 10:26:00

sparkychap wrote:

If the property is vacant, then there's no need to give anyone notice. D'uh.

Yes, but when would 2b apply as every rental property would be vacant after the 90 days is up? What's the purpose of 2b if marketing cannot begin until after 90 days? Sure, the seller could sell privately sight unseen within the 90 days, but that would be rare.

Edited by committed at 10:32 am, Sat 3 Apr

committed - 2021-04-03 10:29:00

sparkychap wrote:

the landlord would need to be able to demonstrate the reasons for the change subject to a claim to the TT under 60AA.

The tenant would presumably have to make a claim. But the tenant would have moved and likely wouldn't know the LL had changed their mind. I am talking about a genuine change of mind or circumstances by the LL.

committed - 2021-04-03 10:31:00

committed wrote:

Yes, but when would 2b apply as every rental property would be vacant after the 90 days is up? What's the purpose of 2b if marketing cannot begin until after 90 days?

Marketing can start anytime, as long as notice of the intent to sell is provided to the tenant as per S47. You just can't give notice of termination until it's sold and vacant possession is required.

Edited by sparkychap at 10:34 am, Sat 3 Apr

sparkychap - 2021-04-03 10:32:00

sparkychap wrote:

Marketing can start anytime, as long as notice of the marketing is provided to the tenant as per S47. You just can't give notice of termination until it's sold and vacant possession is required.

Why can't marketing start earlier? Presumably the house can be sold anytime during the 90 days...following notice of termination.

committed - 2021-04-03 10:36:00

sparkychap wrote:

You just can't give notice of termination until it's sold and vacant possession is required.

You can give notice of termination when you are intending to sell. So the notice comes before the sale...

committed - 2021-04-03 10:39:00

committed wrote:

The tenant would presumably have to make a claim. But the tenant would have moved and likely wouldn't know the LL had changed their mind. I am talking about a genuine change of mind or circumstances by the LL.

So they see the property hasn't gone on the market, or appears back for rent. Of course they might not care, but if they think the landlord is trying to avoid the new rules, they have a way of testing them.

Edited by sparkychap at 10:41 am, Sat 3 Apr

sparkychap - 2021-04-03 10:41:00

committed wrote:

You can give notice of termination when you are intending to sell. So the notice comes before the sale...

No you can't.

sparkychap - 2021-04-03 10:41:00

committed wrote:

Why can't marketing start earlier? Presumably the house can be sold anytime during the 90 days...following notice of termination.

Because law.

sparkychap - 2021-04-03 10:42:00

sparkychap wrote:

No you can't.

Re-read section 2a and explain why not. If there was no intention to sell, the LL wouldn't be kicking the tenant out!

Edited by committed at 10:46 am, Sat 3 Apr

committed - 2021-04-03 10:44:00

sparkychap wrote:

Because law.

Cite the section of law which states that you cannot sell your property within 90 days of giving notice of termination?

committed - 2021-04-03 10:45:00

committed wrote:

Re-read section 2a and explain why not.

You reread it an explain why "after the termination date" is so hard for you to understand.

sparkychap - 2021-04-03 10:45:00

committed wrote:

Cite the section of law which states that you cannot sell your property within 90 days of giving notice of termination?

Already done so above. Try reading it.

sparkychap - 2021-04-03 10:46:00

sparkychap wrote:

You reread it an explain why "after the termination date" is so hard for you to understand.

So you agree that the intention to sell comes first. And if I'm intending to sell I can sell at anytime.

committed - 2021-04-03 10:48:00

committed wrote:

So you agree that the intention to sell comes first. And if I'm intending to sell I can sell at anytime.

Yes well done. But you can't give notice until you've sold subject to vacant possession. Awesome, it gives me the warm fuzzies when the penny drops for you.

sparkychap - 2021-04-03 10:49:00

sparkychap wrote:

Already done so above. Try reading it.

Hmmm the section doesn't state the property cannot be sold at any time. You've confirmed such a law doesn't exist.

committed - 2021-04-03 10:49:00

committed wrote:

Hmmm the section doesn't state the property cannot be sold at any time. You've confirmed such a law doesn't exist.

The property can be sold at anytime, but notice can only be given in two situations.

If notice has been given subject to 2a, the property can't me marketed until AFTER the termination date,

Edited by sparkychap at 10:51 am, Sat 3 Apr

sparkychap - 2021-04-03 10:50:00

sparkychap wrote:

If notice has been given subject to 2a, the property can't me marketed until AFTER the termination date,

But I've sold the property to a friend who will move in the day after the tenant moves out. I've got no need to market the property! It was tortuous but we got there in the end.

Edited by committed at 10:53 am, Sat 3 Apr

committed - 2021-04-03 10:52:00

Lets try this in a few simple words. There are now two routes to selling and giving notice:

I give notice to sell under S47. I market the property and I sell subject to vacant possession. THEN I can give notice.

Or I give tenant notice now, but can only start marketing the property AFTER the termination date.

What I can't do is give notice now and then start marketing.

sparkychap - 2021-04-03 10:54:00