Another fence update
| # | Post |
|---|---|
| 1 | I have posted twice before about our fence dispute, here a summary to catch up: - Our land is a vacant section, we don't live there and as it was grazed over winter we weren't regularly there. - We had a verbal agreement to build the fence together some time in the future but didn't get into any details. - We found out the neighbours had started the fence without notifying us. (but they hadn't purchased any materials yet as their were some materials to recycle from an old fence in the wrong place) - We again agreed to work together to build the fence but it was delayed twice (once by them and once by us) for valid reasons. - They went ahead and built the fence themselves not waiting till we could get together. - They then sent as an invoice for both labour and additional materials (without ever having discussed costs). - We offered to pay them half materials - In their itemized materials list they tried to charge us for recycled fence posts based on a trademe auction (that later didn't sell) for 2nd hand posts that was higher than the cost of new posts - They said they won't accept half materials and would take it to the disputes tribunal. In an attempt to compromise (as they are our future neighbours and we would like to be on good terms) we offered to pay full material costs after recalculating the fence posts at the price of half a new post. As the fence is only 5 wires, originally 3-4 wires but they hastily added extra wires at the bottom (after we had already pointed out it wasn't appropriate to incur costs without discussing it). We suspect they couldn't find a fencing cost calculator to justify their price for anything lower than a 5 wire fence, in some places the slapped on bottom wire is touching the ground and there are no battens. We noted that it doesn't meet the most basic definition of a rural boundary fence in the Fencing Act and might not be up to function to contain children and animals, and that if it was an issue we could discuss how to remediate that in the future (expecting that we would go half in any necessary costs if needed). We did consider offering to add the extra wires and battens now to make things more fair but were advised by a someone with more fencing experience than us that they suspect the posts may not support it. They have replied to us after a month and are not happy but said they would accept our offer with their conditions. They have said the area is not rural but low density. We know that but thought basing it on the most basic fence was for their benefit as urban fences are more substantial. They said their fence is a "standard post and wire fence". I haven't been able to find any definition of a standard post and wire fence other than what is in the Fencing Act for rural fences, unless I've missed something? They have said that if they accept our offer then they are not responsible for any more work on the fence. This is concerning to us as questions have been raised about the standard of work, the posts are supported by small braces at the base which appear to be supported themselves by rocks and cinder blocks. We are not fencing experts and if that is standard practise and it holds up then that's fine, but it if its not then we have a problem. They have also said that the fence's purpose is not to contain children and animals (for what purpose is a fence for then? the boundary markers can sufficiently define the boundary) This is concerning to us as they are preparing to start and B&B and will have regular guests who may have children, or visitors to their guests may bring children. On our side of the fence is a gully with a stream. The consequences of a young child getting in there could be fatal. On one hand they are saying they have done a professional job and want to be paid for labour and on the other they are saying it isn't intended to contain chi orange_cat - 2020-12-16 16:18:00 |
| 2 | Pay them nothing and ask them to lodge a case with the Tribunal so it can be formally sorted. Time to put an end to the mucking around. tony9 - 2020-12-16 16:27:00 |
| 3 | I agree with tony9. It need not be an aggressive suggestion, just along the lines that an independent review would be best due to the unresolved issues. Just leave it at that and see what happens. Certainly you should not accept a condition that they will not work further on the fence. Feel you have set out the course of events clearly but see if they do go to the DT or if they make another offer you are happy with. If the latter make sure it is in writing signed by all parties. Question - would the DT expect a fencing notice and objection to be made?That would be normal fencing process. artemis - 2020-12-16 17:50:00 |
| 4 | artemis wrote:
Without a fencing notice under the act the Tribunal will order the costs to fall as they are. In other words whoever paid money or contracted work has no recourse from anyone else. If there is any outstanding work which has not been caused by one party, then the Tribunal may order the defined costs to be met equally by each party. Not sure if they would require a fencing notice and the whole process. tony9 - 2020-12-16 17:57:00 |
| 5 | I wouldnt give them a cent. The second you do that you accept their poor work. Let the disputes tribunal sort it out. I've personally been there a few times and if you are well prepared then it's nothing to stress about. trouser - 2020-12-16 18:08:00 |
| 6 | I would pay them and move on.No more stress and worry. If your worried about guests then just put it electric on your side, easy. Move on Christmas around the corner and you have to have some fun.Forget them. Each to their own. msigg - 2020-12-16 18:35:00 |
| 7 | "Unfortunately we are unable to agree to your terms, we accordingly suggest that you should proceed with a Disputes Tribunal hearing if you are not satisfied with the offer we have made without your requested additional terms. The offer we have made remains open for ____ days or until you lodge for a Disputes Tribunal hearing, whichever comes first." You are not going to be friends with these people already, wouldn't worry about getting on thier wrong side, they will take advantage of you if you let them. Disputes Tribunal is no big deal, just go in telling yourself that whatever is decided by the adjudicator you will accept as a fair impartial decision, what's the worst can happen, you pay half, the best is you pay nothing. Edited by bitsy_boffin at 6:47 pm, Wed 16 Dec bitsy_boffin - 2020-12-16 18:44:00 |
| 8 | tony9 wrote: do this. Take advice from community law how to prepare your dt defence. Your neighbours have done lots of things incorrectly. In the meantime take lots of photos of the fence, workmanship etc. Edited by gabbysnana at 6:47 pm, Wed 16 Dec gabbysnana - 2020-12-16 18:46:00 |
| 9 | And tell them you won’t be responsible for anybody climbing their poor fence onto your property and drowning and that you weren’t informed they were going to be running an accommodation business. lakeview3 - 2020-12-16 19:21:00 |
| 10 | What do people think about the idea that the fence isn't intended for animals and children? They also have ponds which I'm not sure if they are fenced from their house, though they are further away from their house than our boundary/stream. If any children drown on their section that's unfortunate, but I would like to prevent any fatalities on ours. Apparently they thought that because I asked if they wanted to go halves in a professional or work together (they chose work together) that we would be agreeable to pay for their labour as they claim it is of a professional standard. orange_cat - 2020-12-16 20:30:00 |
| 11 | Ask for copies of the invoices for materials and labour. masturbidder - 2020-12-17 08:14:00 |
| 12 | artemis wrote:
As the fence has not been completed to your standard, any implied contract should not stand. May pay to get an independent assessment re posts, battens, no. of wires. If you pay them, while unhappy with their work, you will probably get no improvements to the fence from them. amasser - 2020-12-17 08:51:00 |
| 13 | They are wrong on so many counts. Have they ever built a fence and invoice someone before? smallwoods - 2020-12-17 09:15:00 |
| 14 | Why are you talking about the fence not being suitable to contain animals and children, when it would appear from what you have written that you were always intending to build a standard post and wire fence anyway, albeit to a higher standard, which would never contain a child or domestic animal anyway? In which case mentioning children seems a complete red herring. As others have said, if you are not happy with the quality of the construction then follow their good advice above. nzkiwisnz - 2020-12-17 10:30:00 |
| 15 | nzkiwisnz wrote:
We never claimed any rural fencing expertise, and expected to have the opportunity to discuss the fence before it was built, I thought that a 7-8 wire fence with battens as described in the fencing act would be suitable for containing at least animals and small children, is that not the case? This is why I have asked for opinions, so we can make informed decisions on how to proceed. orange_cat - 2020-12-17 10:46:00 |
| 16 | A standard boundary fence on most farms is nine wires especially if it a roadside fence. (indemnity insurance?) If there are sheep being grazed netting is even better. Hot wires must be on the inside part of the fence. You can get away with less wires on an internal fence (eg three or four) however they would usually be electrified. If you want child proof you need either deer fence height or barbed wire on top or an electric hotwire near the top. Most farmers either work together to put up a boundary fence or they employ a fencing contractor and split the bill. If they refuse to accept your offer let them take it to the tribunal. As far as what is on your side of the fence that is not your problem if kids go wandering. Put a sign on the fence eg hotwire warning or private property. strathview - 2020-12-17 15:33:00 |
| 17 | strathview wrote: deer fence is the way to go - ever try climbing one of those? Very difficult! Can be done but ouchies! lakeview3 - 2020-12-17 15:41:00 |
| 18 | Standard rural fence is 8 wire post and batten fence, using full round posts rammed at least 600mm into the ground, with strainers and stays. Edited by mrcat1 at 6:37 pm, Thu 17 Dec mrcat1 - 2020-12-17 18:33:00 |
| 19 | nzkiwisnz wrote:
Are sheep and cattle not domesticated animals?? mrcat1 - 2020-12-17 18:35:00 |
| 20 | mrcat1 wrote:
The fence does appear to be in the right place, so that's one thing they got right. Here is a picture of a post showing the small braces and rocks: If it ends up going to the disputes tribunal then we will be getting the advise of a professional contractor on the job that they have done. We haven't done it so far so as not to antagonize them, as the fence is visible from their house, and we were hoping for a friendly resolution. Edited by orange_cat at 7:06 pm, Thu 17 Dec orange_cat - 2020-12-17 19:02:00 |
| 21 | mrcat1 wrote:
No, but a dog is. And most of the farm fences I have seen a child would easily climb through between the strands of wire, rather than climbing over the top like an adult would. nzkiwisnz - 2020-12-17 19:03:00 |
| 22 | Personally I'd give those poles a damn good push and see how solid they really are. sparkychap - 2020-12-17 19:04:00 |
| 23 | nzkiwisnz wrote:
What? Are you saying sheep and cattle wild beasts? johnston - 2020-12-17 19:37:00 |
| 24 | orange_cat wrote: supernova2 - 2020-12-17 20:08:00 |
| 25 | orange_cat wrote:
Very few children get through a 7 wire fence, if done to a professional standard. smallwoods - 2020-12-17 20:11:00 |
| 26 | orange_cat wrote:
Totally inadequate, unless you agree to it. smallwoods - 2020-12-17 20:23:00 |
| 27 | I've seen kids at AG day competitions build a better fence than that. Enough said. strathview - 2020-12-17 22:32:00 |
| 28 | smallwoods wrote: I grew up on a farm and it's really easy to get thru a 7 wire fence as a child. annie17111 - 2020-12-18 10:23:00 |
| 29 | annie17111 wrote:
Freshly strung? smallwoods - 2020-12-18 13:34:00 |
| 30 | Post no. 20 - That is a crap fence. amasser - 2020-12-18 14:03:00 |
| 31 | smallwoods wrote: thinking about it, I can still fit thru a seven wife fence and did it about two months ago, wasn't freshly strung tho. annie17111 - 2020-12-18 14:29:00 |
| 32 | johnston wrote:
Not exactly 'wild' but some can act that way when upset. Our ram used to charge strainer posts for fun---when there weren't people around he could terrorize. Maturing young bulls aren't exactly fun to be in the paddock with if they don't want you there either and as for stags, you soon learn how to scale a deer fence fast if he takes exception to you being there and that's not during the roar when they are at their most dangerous. kacy5 - 2020-12-18 14:31:00 |
| 33 | annie17111 wrote:
So a polygamous fence? At least it's not highly strung. hers.nz - 2020-12-18 18:15:00 |
| 34 | [quote=bitsy_boffin clicketyclick1 - 2020-12-18 19:02:00 |
| 35 | orange_cat wrote: andrewcg53 - 2020-12-18 20:50:00 |
| 36 | orange_cat wrote:
Off course thats not right, how many rural fences have you seen done in this fashion?? mrcat1 - 2020-12-19 09:59:00 |
| 37 | sparkychap wrote:
Exactly. mrcat1 - 2020-12-19 10:00:00 |
| 38 | hers.nz wrote:
Good spotting wilbur! smallwoods - 2020-12-19 10:08:00 |
| 39 | mrcat1 wrote:
We did think it was peculiar, but our charismatic neighbour implied he was skilled and knowledgeable in this area. Initially we had made a good impression of him, and as he is American we thought perhaps they have a different way of doing things there. We are aware that we ourselves are not experienced fence experts (though we have some experience with urban fences). So I wanted to hear the thoughts of others who know more than us if anyone believed it to be an acceptable practise. orange_cat - 2020-12-19 11:22:00 |
| 40 | orange_cat wrote:
Oohhh, it's an AMERICAN fence! Well, golly-gee, why didn't you say at the start. Northern or Southern? thumbs647 - 2020-12-19 13:23:00 |
| 41 | I'd never accept or pay any part of that ridiculous fence in post #20, OP; and doubt anyone else would. Personally I'd advise your neighbour that you aren't willing to pay any part of the fence, unless he/you (together) remedy it and if he insists it's a 'great fence' that you should contribute to, then you'll happily let it go to disputes tribunal for an independant adjudicator to decide. desi1969 - 2020-12-19 13:42:00 |
| 42 | orange_cat wrote:
Yeah, good for keeping long horn cattle out, but should have more barb wire on it. smallwoods - 2020-12-19 14:34:00 |
| 43 | orange_cat wrote: Tell him it wouldn't keep out a murderous, rapist Mexican, let alone a cow, sheep, dog or small human. sparkychap - 2020-12-19 14:50:00 |
| 44 | orange_cat wrote:
The American's invented the Dunning-Kruger effect. sw20 - 2020-12-19 16:29:00 |
| 45 | orange_cat wrote:
Considering NZ sends fencing equipment to the states for them to fence with, do you think they are an athority on rural fencing?? mrcat1 - 2020-12-19 18:44:00 |
| 46 | As mentioned above, Getting a Professional fencing contractor in to cross check the workmanship would be well worth the small fee & would stand up in court as evidence to the quality of workmanship & any remediation needed to bring it up to a professional std (or even just up to a durable std). Doing that, will put the entire job on a professional level that applies to both parties mrfxit - 2020-12-20 07:20:00 |
| 47 | If I remember correctly, the std type boundary fence, is a 7 wire with staggered spacing getting smaller towards the bottom. mrfxit - 2020-12-20 07:22:00 |
| 48 | He definitely thinks you are Mexico. You need a chicken. luteba - 2020-12-20 08:34:00 |
| 49 | luteba wrote: mrcat1 - 2020-12-20 08:49:00 |
| 50 | Another beginning of neighbours from hell in the making OP bending over backwards to accommodate as well. Time to dig one toes in and some good advice in the thread. gamefisher - 2020-12-20 18:47:00 |
