Thomas Jones married Mary Ann Thimbleby St Stephens church, Richmond, Victoria, Australia. by Rev.Mr. Perks. 31 Dec. 1853.
Some children born (and some died) in Victoria prior to moving to west coast NZ. and having more children.
Thomas was a widower when he married Mary Ann.
I would like to know if there is anyway I can find his parents or even perhaps his former wife?
I feel that he was possibly from England.
This is another of my 'brick walls' exhausting me.

lulu.. - 2019-08-12 16:39:00

Not exactly what you are after but gives an approx year of birth
Victoria Inward Passenger Lists 1839-1923
What can I do with this record?
View an image of this record
Attach this record as a source to a person on your tree. Also update people and relatives with details from this record
Report a transcription error.
First name(s) Mary Ann
Last name Thimbleby
Age 18
Birth year 1834
Departure port London
Arrival year 1852
Arrival month Nov
Arrival port Port Phillip
Ship name Ballarat
State Victoria
Record set Victoria Inward Passenger Lists 1839-1923
Category Travel & migration
Subcategory Passenger Lists
Collections from Australasia

h28skipper - 2019-08-12 17:13:00

Yes I have this for Mary Ann but nothing on Thomas. There are heaps of Thomas Jones out there which is daunting.

lulu.. - 2019-08-12 17:36:00

Sorry I got carried way lol. It was Thomas you are inquiring about

h28skipper - 2019-08-12 17:46:00

Their marriage notice names Mary's father but just says Thomas was from Richmond.
Do you have an approx. birth year?

h28skipper - 2019-08-12 17:53:00

Mary Ann b.1833 but I have nothing on Thomas. There are so many NZ deaths that its hard to guess which one is him so I couldnt use that either. As he was a widower I guess he could perhaps be a lot older than Mary Ann but maybe not.
I have it in my head that he may have been English, lost his wife then gone to Australia after gold as he was certainly in gold field areas in early married years with Mary Ann. Its just my thoughts.

lulu.. - 2019-08-12 18:26:00

There is a tree on Ancestry which states Thomas arrived in Melbourne 19 Oct 1852. According to the tree he was baptised Meifod, Montgomeryshire 2 April 1826
In the 1851 census for Welshtown, Montgomeryshire his occupation was joiner, aged 25. He was unmarried.
He arrived in Melbourne 19 Oct 1852

h28skipper - 2019-08-12 18:30:00

It also states this is his burial
Name Thomas Jones Birth
Date abt 1822
Death Age 69
Death Date 15 Nov 1891
Burial Place Westland,
West Coast, New Zealand
Cemetery Kumara
Spouse Name Mary Ann Jones
Spouse Death Age 58
Spouse Death Date 24 Mar 1892

Kumara Cemetery
Caroline Elinor Jones d/o Thomas and Mary Ann Jones died 22 December 1889 aged 19 years and Thomas Jones father of above died 15 November 1891 aged 69 years. Also Mary Ann Jones wife of above died 24 March 1892 aged 58 years

h28skipper - 2019-08-12 18:50:00

Burials above are surely the right ones as this death notice states
MANAWATU STANDARD, VOLUME LXIII, ISSUE 238, 6 SEPTEMBER 1943
JONES.—On September 4, 1943, at Palmerston .North, Thomas Thimbleby Jones, late of Kumara, beloved father of W. T. T. Jones, of Whakarongo; in his 81st year. Privately interred today.

Edited by h28skipper at 7:16 pm, Mon 12 Aug

h28skipper - 2019-08-12 19:16:00

thankyou for all your work. It certainly makes my NZ notes clearer to understand. I have yet to follow up on your Wales info..
Thomas would have had to married after 1851 census, been widowed, then married to Mary Ann in Victoria by end of 1853. I wonder how those 'inbetween' years went? Im delighted if he came from Wales as I knew that there was a Wales connection and havnt found it yet. Maybe its my Thomas?

lulu.. - 2019-08-12 19:53:00

The Argus newspaper announcement
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/510275
is in line with the information you have already but adds "eldest daughter of Richard Thimbleby". Jones' parents of home town not mentioned.
Is the 1891 death registration not useful?

stock - 2019-08-12 21:23:00

The member deleted this message.

stock - 2019-08-12 21:52:00

h28skipper wrote:

and Thomas Jones father of above died 15 November 1891 aged 69

NZBDM claims a different date:
1891/6364 Jones Thomas 69Y (5/11/1891)
Can't find a newspaper or council burial record to verify a date.

stock - 2019-08-12 21:53:00

A Mrs Thomas Jones of Richmond died at Ballarat (I think that's what it is) October 1853.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/510544

Can't easily identify her forename at Victoria BDM

stock - 2019-08-12 22:38:00

Mary Ann Thimbleby probably had a brother Richard.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/185899
Marriage notice in 4th column. The father was of Hoxton, London.

Edited by stock at 10:43 pm, Mon 12 Aug

stock - 2019-08-12 22:43:00

No wonder I couldn't find the NZ death registration for Mary Ann Jones. She died in Victoria 1892:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197975967/2137863
9

stock - 2019-08-12 22:50:00

You are familiar with the Oliver Cromwell portrait?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/21900521
4th column: Thomas Jones of Kumara is visiting Melbourne.

stock - 2019-08-12 22:58:00

I wasnt aware of this portrait at all.Mary Ann Thimbleby,wife of Thomas Jones seems to have had nobility in her family. in 1666 van Dyck painted portraits of Lady Elizabeth Thimbleby and her sister, Dorothy,Viscountess Andover.. they were in London Art Gallery. There is also a Thimbleby castle.
I had gathered Thomas Jones and family were very well thought of in their community on the west coast Sth. Isl. NZ. When I began looking for my ancestors years back I was interested in finding convicts LOL.
Mary Ann's father is also called Richard Thimbleby,as is her brother. So delighted you found Mary Ann;s death.....I hadnt thought of looking in Australia. It says she was widow so obviously her husband Thomas had died before her but with the confusion in dates im not sure where.
I wonder now if he came from a well to do family also. I thought he was a miner but maybe he was involved in gold as a business man?
.

lulu.. - 2019-08-13 00:15:00

stock wrote:

NZBDM claims a different date:
1891/6364 Jones Thomas 69Y (5/11/1891)
Can't find a newspaper or council burial record to verify a date.

Strange... one date says 5th and another says 15th. I wonder if its just human error? Also odd I cant find anything in Paperspast re death of Thomas as he was a prominent business man it seems. I do recall (in papers past) him having made a trip to Wales but cant find that now. It would add weight to him having been born there or maybe it was the discovery of gold there that was the lure.

lulu.. - 2019-08-13 12:09:00

not all papers have been digitized

crab2 - 2019-08-13 13:13:00

The member deleted this message.

daisy86 - 2019-08-13 13:21:00

stock wrote:

A Mrs Thomas Jones of Richmond died at Ballarat (I think that's what it is) October 1853.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/510544

Can't easily identify her forename at Victoria BDM

Is there anyway I can find her forename or place of birth somehow?

lulu.. - 2019-08-14 12:48:00

Victoria BDM:
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/searc
h-your-family-history

Special August 2019 price is $20 for a family history uncertified certificate.

The 1853 newspaper item unhelpfully notifies the death of Mrs Thomas Jones at Ballarat (that's probably what it reads).

Thomas Jones of Kumara was born about 1822 and was about 31 in 1853.

If the Mrs Jones who died 1853 was the wife of your Thomas Jones, then assume she was also about the same vintage; say 20s or 30s.

There are 29 Jones deaths registered in Victoria 1853. If we exclude classic male names and target female names aged 20s 30s then the 29 reduces to these:

Event: deaths
Registration number 2428 / 1853
Family name: JONES
Given name(s) Mrs
Place of event: RICHMOND, Australia
Personal detail Mother's name <Unknown Family Name>, Unknown
Mother's family name at birth UNKNOWN
Father's Name: <Unknown Family Name>, Unknown

Event: deaths
Registration number 33685 / 1853
Family name: JONES
Given name(s) Mrs
Place of event: RICHMOND, Australia
Personal detail Mother's name <Unknown Family Name>, Unknown
Mother's family name at birth UNKNOWN
Father's Name: <Unknown Family Name>, Unknown

These two records are very similar. Are they both for the same person? Neither is registered at Ballarat. Ballarat is about 120 km from Richmond. There are no Jones registrations at Ballarat 1853.

Why died at Ballarat when resident at Richmond? Ballarat would hardly have been a holiday Mecca. Did Mrs Jones go home to mum to have a baby? Who knows. If this Mrs Jones is your target, then the remarriage by Thomas was very soon afterwards; but that is not unknown; was there a child to be cared for? As usual in this game more questions to be followed up.

Did your Thomas Jones have a daughter Elizabeth born in Victoria 1853? This is the only Jones birth registered Richmond 1853 and the father's name matches your man:
Event: births
Registration number 46214 / 1853
Family name: JONES
Given name(s) Elizabeth
Place of event: RICHMOND, Australia
Personal detail Mother's name <Unknown Family Name>, Anne
Mother's family name at birth DUFFY
Father's Name: <Unknown Family Name>, JONES Thomas

stock - 2019-08-14 16:11:00

stock wrote:

No wonder I couldn't find the NZ death registration for Mary Ann Jones. She died in Victoria 1892:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197975967/2137863
9

Yes, wow, March 24th 1892 at Alfred Hospital Melbourne, Mary Ann,widow of late Thomas Jones of Kumara, Westcoast NZ Beloved sister of Richard Thimbleby of Castemaine Victoria,aged 58yrs. So now it looks like the post by Stock regarding 1853 child Elizabeth,the woman Anne Duffy,and the man Thomas Jones could be the clue to a marriage prior to that of Thomas and Mary Ann on 31.Dec.1853
Did Anne, and maybe Elizabeth,die early in 1853?

lulu.. - 2019-08-15 00:27:00

There are two 1853 death registrations for a Mrs Jones in Richmond, Victoria.
Family name JONES
Given name Mrs
Event Death
Mothers/ spouses name <Unknown Family Name>,
Mothers family name at birth Unknown
Fathers name UNKNOWN <Unknown Family Name>, Unknown
Place of death RICHMOND
Spouse at death JONES, Unknown
Age 33
Year 1853
Reg Number 2428/1853

Four lines down there is another death registration with all the same details except for the registration number which is 33685/1853

Edited by h28skipper at 9:12 am, Thu 15 Aug

h28skipper - 2019-08-15 09:00:00

Skipper, I assume one of the 1853 deaths would be Thomas's first wife? Post 23 from Stock makes me wonder if the lady died in child birth. I cant work out the Anne Duffy bit tho when it says mother unknown?

lulu.. - 2019-08-15 09:47:00

h28skipper wrote:

There is a tree on Ancestry which states Thomas arrived in Melbourne 19 Oct 1852. According to the tree he was baptised Meifod, Montgomeryshire 2 April 1826
In the 1851 census for Welshtown, Montgomeryshire his occupation was joiner, aged 25. He was unmarried.
He arrived in Melbourne 19 Oct 1852

SKipper, many thanks for your hard work. I would love to view the tree you found in ancestry but I am not subscribed. Could you kindly tell me the name of the tree and maybe who has it? Somehow I need to get to see this tree!

lulu.. - 2019-08-15 15:23:00

Don't jump to any conclusions. The Mrs Thomas Jones who died October 1853 may be unconnected to your family. The child Elizabeth Jones birth registered some time in 1853 may also be no connection. But the possibilities deserve exploring.

And I am puzzled about why a Ballarat death might have been registered at Richmond; and "Mrs Jones" and no forename. Weird.

There are some other coincidences of name & age that might have 2 registration references.

stock - 2019-08-15 16:30:00

Have just found in Find my Past site-- Eiizabeth Jones, b. 1853 at Richmond Victoria. fathers name, Thomas Jones. Mothers name Anne Duffy. As Im not subscribed I cant open and read transcription. As you say Stock, I musnt jump to conclusions but do you think this is anything to do with Thomas's first marriage?

lulu.. - 2019-08-15 17:00:00

lulu.. wrote:

do you think this is anything to do with Thomas's first marriage?

Do you have Thomas Jones' 1891 death registration? It should include 1st marriage information if the informant knew.

stock - 2019-08-15 17:19:00

Just to put a damper on things, there are two family trees at Ancestry for Elizabeth Jones born 1853 Victoria to Thomas Jones and Anne Duffy. They claim this Thomas Jones died 29 December 1861 • Barkers Creek, Victoria, Australia and Anne Duffy (Mrs Jones) died 19 MAY 1875 • Seymour Vic Australia.

I suspect the Find My Past item has been sourced from Victoria BDM as in message 23.

stock - 2019-08-15 17:31:00

The findmypast 1835 transcription of Elizabeth Jones was, as stock says, the same as that from Victoria BDM

h28skipper - 2019-08-15 18:56:00

Skipper and Stock, I can see I need to get Thomas's Death cert.or I think you recommend a printout?.
With two dates given as 5th and 15th November 1891 which do I use?
I assume the 5th as in NZBDM?

Re. my post 29...Yes I found it in Find my Past not a tree. I guess its not going to lead me anywhere.

lulu.. - 2019-08-15 19:23:00

lulu.. wrote:

Skipper and Stock, I can see I need to get Thomas's Death cert.or I think you recommend a printout?.
With two dates given as 5th and 15th November 1891 which do I use?
I assume the 5th as in NZBDM?

Re. my post 29...Yes I found it in Find my Past not a tree. I guess its not going to lead me anywhere.

Always the printout for family history. There is usually detail that isn't in the typewritten transcription, and less room for error.

Don't worry too much about the date when making the order. A range 1/11/1891 - 30/11/1891 will do.

At
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search/search?p
ath=%2FqueryEntry.m%3Ftype%3Ddeaths

Just search for registration number 1891/6364 and then click "order Product" and have your credit card at the ready.

stock - 2019-08-15 21:52:00

h28skipper. In your posts 7 and 8 you mentioned a family tree. Can you give me a name of the tree and who manages it please? I would dearly like to view it and am unable to find it.
Incidently, I have ordered death printout for Thomas Jones and eagerly awaiting it's arrival.

Edited by lulu.. at 12:01 pm, Tue 20 Aug

lulu.. - 2019-08-20 11:57:00

Can I email the info to you please? Not really sure about posting it here. You will need to be a bit cryptic when posting your email address lol

h28skipper - 2019-08-21 11:50:00

h28skipper wrote:

Can I email the info to you please? Not really sure about posting it here. You will need to be a bit cryptic when posting your email address lol

Skipper, probably best to do it thu facebook messenger. My name is Lynne White from Nelson If you are happy to friend me please.

lulu.. - 2019-08-21 12:13:00

Of course lol.

h28skipper - 2019-08-21 12:30:00

You will need to give me your name so I can accept or you can search my name(as post37) and ask me to accept them we can private message

lulu.. - 2019-08-21 13:39:00

I now have Thomas death printout. D.5th Nov.1891, buried 7th Nov.at Kumara NZ.(B.1822)at Stafford shire, England. Father was Emanuel Jones.
Mother unknown.
Even with all this info I havnt found his mother or first wife. He could have married first in England or Australia?

lulu.. - 2019-09-05 10:14:00