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mwood - 2009-11-04 13:08:00

....mwood.... I am going to do more research on malt vinegar... I would have thought it was made from beer, going on what I have read, best made without the hops. White vinegar, is distilled. Should be anyway. I rather think we are sold something, these days. I wouldn't be putting vinegar through my still, to prove that point lol....You probably could re-use the grain, just add more malt and sugar, it is the alcohol that is required to make the vinegar....Depending on how my cider vinegar turns out I may stick to wine vinegar, wine being easy to make....

pickles7 - 2009-11-04 13:23:00

yep afraid you need to make the supreme sacrifice . Don't add water to the beer.... unless it is 14% lol.

pickles7 - 2009-11-04 13:26:00

pickles7 wrote:

For anyone wanting to make wine vinegar, I will put the method down again in one post....Pour 1 bottle of white wine, the same quantity of water, as wine, into a glass jar.... [a clean flagon, will be perfect] ....add a 1/2 a cup of raw cider vinegar....cover with a piece of gauze, doubled and put a rubber band on to keep it secure.... Vinegar needs to breath, and likes a warm dark place, to develop. Room temp. is fine, I kept mine covered with a towel to keep it dark....This jar is going to smell very strongly of vinegar, I had no problems with it as I was curious as to what was happening....I looked at it every day.... The process has taken approx. 1 month..

I have also noticed the strong smell of vinegar has dispersed, now that the vinegar mother has sunk.

pickles7 - 2009-11-04 13:44:00

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mwood - 2009-11-04 13:56:00

Here is a pic of my vinegar in the bottles.. The little bottle on the right is the $9.00 bottle of raw cider vinegar...7 X 750 mil. bottles I other little bottle, a gift for a friend wanting to make her wine into vinegar. And I kept a little back to start my next brew. I will just feed it for now 1/2 cup each ,wine and water.
I have put half of my cider into the bowl the wine vinegar came out of, it is a little sluggish, may have needed a slosh around to add a bit of oxygen for the vinegar mother. I may buy a cask of wine for my next batch, even at $18.00 for 3 liters, I would end up with 6 liters of high quality, wine vinegar.
http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/87/110266687_full.jp
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pickles7 - 2009-11-05 16:40:00

3 days on and there is a nice film over the top of the cider, I put into the fish bowl, it did need some oxygen. It is on the way to being converted into vinegar. The lot I left in the barrel, is not doing much. I may leave it, and put that into the fish bowl after bottling in about three weeks time. I am today going to put down 23 liters of beer for my malt vinegar.. I have a "coopers" larger on hand, it is about 4 years out of date, I picked up 2 cans at a garage sale $1.00 each... I will add a 1 kg tin of malt, take the specific gravity before fermentation takes place. I won't be making my own malt,.... mwood..... I will pass, on that process.

pickles7 - 2009-11-08 08:32:00

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mwood - 2009-11-13 07:56:00

sounds good ....mwood.... I didn't get around to putting my beer down, yet, the cider vinegar is a bit slow, is doing all the right things but not as fast as the wine. As I see it I will have vinegar being stored all over the place in no time at all. I will try and remember to buy some more oak chips, and add those to my malt vinegar before I bottle it. I have now labeled my bottles of vinegar, and will dip the top of the bottles into wax one of these days. I did read up on a continuous system, but I prefer to get it done and all bottled..I have a 23 liter glass carboy, I may store the malt vinegar in, like wine, it may like to be stored in bulk. I couldn't bring myself to reuse the remains of my still, ....

pickles7 - 2009-11-13 10:16:00

Cool, just had a 12 liter bottle delivered to my door, I am not taking any risks this time, I am going to take it to a glass shop and have them cut a hole, for a tap....now the tap has to be right, off to the plumbers, car wreckers, Last hole I tried to cut, was for a huge plastic tap...Think this bottle may sit on my bench, has to look good, as well.....

pickles7 - 2009-11-16 10:32:00

pickles7 wrote:

....mwood.... I am going to do more research on malt vinegar... I would have thought it was made from beer, going on what I have read, best made without the hops. White vinegar, is distilled.

Malt vinegar is made by the two-fold fermentation of barley malt or other cereals where starch has been converted to maltose (so best avoided). In the UK, 'distilled vinegar' was made from malt in the past and distilled, so it turns into white vinegar.

White (distilled) vinegar is nowadays not distilled, but the ethyl alcohol from which it is made is distilled from a yeast fermentation mixture.

In most of the world, molasses, which can be fermented directly by yeast, is the major source of alcohol.

However alcohol is also made synthetically from petroleum products which can be much cheaper.

Wikipedia says:
The global demand of acetic acid is around 6.5 million tonnes per year (Mt/a), of which approximately 1.5 Mt/a is met by recycling; the remainder is manufactured from petrochemical feedstocks or from biological sources.
Acetic acid is produced both synthetically and by bacterial fermentation. Today, the biological route accounts for only about 10% of world production, but it remains important for vinegar production, as the world food purity laws stipulate that vinegar used in foods must be of biological origin. About 75% of acetic acid made for use in the chemical industry is made by methanol carbonylation...

The American FDA says:
"...Questions have been raised as to whether we can or should continue to consider synthetic alcohol unsuitable for food use. In order to secure more information, we wrote to the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Division, Internal Revenue Service. Their reply included the following paragraphs:
“Presently, we authorize the manufacture of vinegar from ethyl alcohol synthesized from natural gas or petroleum derivatives. It is our opinion that most of the distilled spirits used in the production of vinegar are derived from natural gas and petroleum…

“When alcohol is used in the production of beverage products, our regulations require that the source of the alcohol be shown on the label except for cordials and liqueurs. Incidentally, I might add that most of the alcohol used in the production of medicinal preparations and flavors is synthetic.”

and concludes with

POLICY:
Synthetic ethyl alcohol may be used as a food ingredient or in the manufacturing of vinegar or other chemicals for food use, within limitations imposed by the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, the Alcohol Administration Act, and regulations promulgated under these acts...."

uli - 2009-11-16 14:16:00

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mwood - 2009-11-16 20:12:00

you could be a little confused there....uli....

pickles7 - 2009-11-16 23:31:00

mmmm not good news with getting a hole cut into my 12 liter bottle, no one wants to take the risk....It will make a perfect storage bottle though....better I keep it in one piece....

pickles7 - 2009-11-20 18:28:00

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mwood - 2009-11-20 18:41:00

....mwood....The cider vinegar is well on its way now, The white vinegar with the gin in has been looking a bit odd, BBS

pickles7 - 2009-11-21 06:30:00

well if ....snibbo.... had any more bottles, I would have taken the risk with one, The last bottle I found of that size, was for sale at, $125.00, lol.... for that I would buy the bottle full, and have a party....

pickles7 - 2009-11-21 06:46:00

on the 17th November.....
I have put 1/2 cup of water and 1/2 cup of low grade gin, in with what looks like some vinegar eels out of my bottle of white vinegar, mmm they look more like eels now they have more room to spread out. I have it on my computer desk so will catch you up with the goings on in the bottle daily.
There is three separate lots of eels in the jar now, smells like sour gin....interesting....dose not smell like vinegar, yet.....

Edited by pickles7 at 6:57 am, Sat 21 Nov

pickles7 - 2009-11-21 06:49:00

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mwood - 2009-11-21 13:44:00

good luck with that lot ....mwood....The wine vinegar I made is dwindling away, 1 bottle to my son, 1 bottle to a friend, 1 bottle to a tasting, coming up, 72 Ladies.. I wish the cider vinegar would speed up a bit.. At this rate I will be putting another lot of wine vinegar down and adding the apple cider to that a liter at a time....The white vinegar I have brewing using gin is interesting....just as well we don't drink gin, its no loss

pickles7 - 2009-11-24 21:35:00

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mwood - 2009-11-25 07:05:00

....mwood .... you need to throw the first 50 mils out....I have just read an article on making vinegar, easier than making beer.. Think that is an understatement ....

pickles7 - 2009-11-25 07:59:00

yummm I just bottled another bottle of vinegar....I put 2 liters of cider into a jar with a whole bottle of wine vinegar, By mixing more raw vinegar in with the cider, got things moving way faster.... I drew off 1 bottle and replaced that with another bottle of cider.... I will see how long that will take to turn into vinegar.... I may be looking at doing that with all 23 liters of cider....That being the case , will need to look at starting the process again maybe in four lots.... I think I was rushing things by adding too little , raw vinegar , to all that cider . Never mind nothing has spoilt , and no fruit flies can get in .

pickles7 - 2009-11-25 23:35:00

7 days have past , the 2 liters of cider put with 1 bottle of wine vinegar is smelling just like vinegar....has a definite vinegar flavour, but is not as strong as I would like it to be , I think the alcohol may have been a little weak....I will draw off 1 cup of the weak vinegar and add 1 cup of wine and will leave it for another week before tasting, it again....I will say I am disappointed with the progress of this vinegar....It is not spoiling,

pickles7 - 2009-12-02 09:48:00

.....mwood.....I am so excited....I have had a reply to a question I posted in XXXXX., re. malt vinegar....I won't be putting the recipe up on here but will put up the progress as it goes....I will need time to finnish the cider vinegar first....That is of concern to me at the moment....Every day we must learn, experience something new.. I feel blessed today..The wine vinegar was very fast.. The cider may take 2-3, or 4 months, malt vinegar will take that long. I feel so much better now, as I was expecting the cider to turn into vinegar as fast as the wine vinegar. I will not be drawing off a cup of weak vinegar now and replacing it with wine...That was lucky I went to see if someone had shared there recipe with me....gee just read I need a 10 gallon vessel lol...there must be an old milk vat out the back of the farm , well, mmmmmmm....lol...poor Husband....

pickles7 - 2009-12-02 11:17:00

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mwood - 2009-12-02 11:28:00

You can buy bulk raw cider vinegar from some health food shops ... Yes committing so much "beer ," I do understand , having just committed 23 liters of cider .... can you imagine 10 gallons , lol .... The poster , of the recipe did say , you can make a smaller amount , but it is such an involved process a larger amount means less work .... I have not read the whole lot of the post yet ... I have printed it . I do intend to make as much as is on the recipe ... The poster makes all there own vinegar , so I feel He is worth a go .... The ingredients won't add up to much , I don't think ... 40 oz can of , stout malt being the most expensive .... Money is vulgar anyway , so I will just do it ... I gave up smoking so I really don't care about the $'s .... The white vinegar is odd , not doing a thing , but smells OK. I will leave it . Maybe cotton wool , floating around on the bottom of that jar .. lol .. that is what it looks like .

Edited by pickles7 at 12:32 pm, Wed 2 Dec

pickles7 - 2009-12-02 12:31:00

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mwood - 2009-12-02 12:55:00

....mwood....We don't have a Binn Inn. The grape vines have it , that we will, soon....I am going to source my malt from the home brew shop....I am not wanting to jeopardize the recipe in any way....If it doesn't work I would think....."if only" I had ".....I hate that line of thinking....stout malt or dark malt, it is mentioned the health food shops or home brew shops stock it....also a stout yeast is called for, I may not wait for the cider to finnish, what? if I nic another beer barrel from the old boy....After the first brew I will be able to alter my line off thinking.... not sure going by the recipe if your beer was the correct way, stick with it, saves me going down that path....Vinegar eels , mean your brew is OK, Mine didn't stick around that long, but on saying that, they were probably eating on the bottom of the jar, out of sight.

pickles7 - 2009-12-03 11:13:00

Today was the first time I have used my wine vinegar, it was very nice.. I will not be going back to using the harsh malt vinegar again , in my salads..I have bought a bottle with a tap already in, for the bench, I got it off trade me..I am wrapped..The hole was not cut , it was designed with the hole already there...This bottle will be used for white wine vinegar only, and will only ever be half full..Thanks arnoavg ..

pickles7 - 2009-12-03 15:34:00

are you sulking....mwood....walking water or something....making sauce ?????????mmmm it is nice........I keep tasting it , just to see how its going...lol...there is room for improvement but I won't be in a hurry to repeat that again for a few years, unless I give it away....

pickles7 - 2009-12-04 13:47:00

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mwood - 2009-12-04 15:00:00

Blenheim ... is big enough I am sure .... I did find a bottle of raw cider vinegar in one of our supermarkets the other day, it was cloudy , a good indication of it being , a raw product ...."River Cottage" is the site, and as I don't find it very user friendly myself, I wish you well .... I still haven't read the whole procedure yet....The cider has at last given me an indication it is on the turn , on the make , to vinegar . I have been trying to get my hands on another bottle like the one I bought off trade me , but , the label on the bottle did not come to anything ....

pickles7 - 2009-12-04 17:55:00

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mwood - 2009-12-06 22:38:00

....That is over the top.....mwood.. evil....That means you will need to get it to come together at the end....I am going to get the malt and the yeast today, get that brew started....I won't be using the vinegar this year but that is not a problem ...I will pasteurise the vinegar and it will last for ever...

pickles7 - 2009-12-07 07:43:00

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mwood - 2009-12-07 07:51:00

It was so easy ....mwood....not worth it. Mother vinegar is a wild thing , by the sounds of things , she will consume all of the raw vinegar if you don't pasteurise it. I have noticed the small bottle has got more growing as I am always opening the bottle letting in more air.... I have given two Ladies here in Hastings some of my raw wine vinegar to get them started....They were keen as at the tasting, but really unless you use heaps it is not worth the effort....I would use at least 3 gallons a year, already used 10 liters....nothing wronge with what I have made with bought vinegar, it is hard to comprehend how much better both sauces would have been with my own vinegar..lol..

pickles7 - 2009-12-07 09:49:00

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mwood - 2009-12-07 09:56:00

OK , I am on my way to making 20 liters of malt vinegar .... In a large pot, I will bring 7 litres of water to a boil and add a , 1.1 liter tin of Black Rock ... Dark , malt extract [ no additives at all ] . Stir , and cook uncovered for 20 minutes . Add 12 cups of unrefined white sugar and stir to dissolve ...Top up with bottled drinking water , distilled water or boiled tap water until you have 23 liters . Let it cool to blood temperature .... Sprinkle in 7 grams of Black Rock beer yeast, and stir well . Fit an air lock ..... catch you up on progress in a couple of days ....

pickles7 - 2009-12-11 13:21:00

The cider vinegar is doing very well, it smells just like vinegar .. I have transferred all of it into the black beer brewing barrel from a good height adding a lot of air as I went..That was to give vinegar mother more oxygen to help her finnish off her job....I put a double thickness of muslin over the opening and made sure there is no way fruit flies will be able to get in...

pickles7 - 2009-12-11 16:14:00

Specific gravity is 1060 , a little more potential alcohol than the cider, same amount of liters... sounds good....six days is the time frame suggested to reach 1005. I cleaned out the beer barrel I used for the cider, even though I started some cider vinegar in it....

pickles7 - 2009-12-11 20:31:00

The malt brew has slowed down heaps..I will take the Specific gravity tomorrow and see if it is done enough , It only needs to be down to 1005...The cider vinegar is doing well... The wine vinegar I bottled , has a lot of growth going on , I strained a bottle to use the other day , and there was very little mother vinegar , to show..I will be pasteurising the bulk of the cider , and the malt vinegar , that will stop the vinegar mother from growing as the vinegar matures..

pickles7 - 2009-12-15 20:46:00

Specific gravity 1020 , and stopped ... tastes nice , a little sweet , I have taken off 1 & 1/2 liters and put that in with , the mother vinegar from a small lot of cider vinegar , I had brewing for the making of the malt vinegar .... I bottled one bottle of cider vinegar , and left 1 bottle of vinegar for the malt brew to mingle with . lol , All in all I am very happy with the vinegar made so far....

pickles7 - 2009-12-16 11:21:00

I added 1 liter of warm water to the malt brew , I thought it may have started it brewing again , but it didn't.... I cannot say I have seen any black brewing barrels around , I will rack the malt into its final barrel , I hope it will be black... May use the yellow pages....mwood.... has your vinegar arrived yet?????I have two friends making vinegar here in Hastings now....It wouldn't be right to sell anything like that on trade me... I would think anything that could be contaminated would be a bit tricky....I would give it by hand . It was easy though just to use the raw cider vinegar....

pickles7 - 2009-12-17 09:24:00

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mwood - 2009-12-18 01:44:00

That will be great .... mwood .... cool as a pickled gherkin .... I hope that commercial vinegar is nice ....We are using the wine vinegar I made, for everything now , in fact I gave the last little bit of DYC I had , away ...

pickles7 - 2009-12-18 10:26:00

The white vinegar, I found a bit of fluffy stuff floating in, is a little odd, the fluffy stuff has thickened in places , I have feed it three times now with 1/2 and 1/2 gin and water....It tastes a bit like ordinary vinegar , not at all like the white D.Y.C. vinegar... I will push on with it.. We don't drink gin , so it will be more use made into vinegar any way#### I did an acid test on my wine vinegar , all good 5% acidity is all good#### I expect on storage for it to increase a little , I will retest it , and post the results....

Edited by pickles7 at 1:30 pm, Sat 19 Dec

pickles7 - 2009-12-19 13:30:00

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mwood - 2009-12-19 23:00:00

mmmmm....residual nutrients???? I will look and see if I have yeast food from making my wine last year , thanks for that....mwood.... the gin is rubbish stuff...13.9 % ALC/VOL....lol.... I thought it may take on the flavour of the white vinegar I got the fluff out of... but it is taking on an ordinary vinegar flavour....My "mother" did get drunk on this gin most every night...lol...

pickles7 - 2009-12-20 10:26:00

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mwood - 2009-12-20 21:17:00