mechnificent wrote:

Far out.. Did you pinch it for a bit of history ?
....

Yes.

mechnificent wrote:

...
In the earliest day of NZ they used to dig holes in the ground and make piles of earth to show the direction of the lines. I always wonder if there are any of those left.. well filled in by now no doubt.

Lockspits. There is a notable example on the shore of Lake Ohau for the Otago / Canterbury boundary.

pico42 - 2021-01-10 15:23:00

apollo11 wrote:

And they would need to be steel reinforced, or they would shatter with the first hit. Concrete pegs don't make sense. I reckon you must have read something about markers.
Can't find a single image online for 'concrete surveyor's peg' worldwide.

One concrete survey boundary marker:
https://trademe.tmcdn.co.nz/photoserver/full/1466481918.jpg

pico42 - 2021-01-10 15:34:00

mechnificent wrote:

No I was never a surveyor Sparky. Nobody needs to be a surveyor to read the regulations or to look at plans and survey notes.

There's lots of stuff that I've never seen, but I'm not so stupid as to deny they exist because of my lack of experience. I've never seen a crocodile.

Nothing in those regulations state that there will be a steel pin below the survey pegs. If there is, please post the exact wording.

sparkychap - 2021-01-10 15:39:00

pico42 wrote:

One concrete survey boundary marker:
https://trademe.tmcdn.co.nz/photoserver/full/1466481918.jpg[
/quote]

It's a thing of beauty.

apollo11 - 2021-01-10 15:39:00

apollo11 wrote:

And they would need to be steel reinforced, or they would shatter with the first hit. Concrete pegs don't make sense. I reckon you must have read something about markers.
Can't find a single image online for 'concrete surveyor's peg' worldwide.

Yeah they were reinforced and I think I mentioned that earlier in regard finding them with a metal detector..
And again, because you haven't seen one doesn't mean they weren't an option or don't exist.

mechnificent - 2021-01-10 18:06:00

pico42 wrote:

Lockspits. There is a notable example on the shore of Lake Ohau for the Otago / Canterbury boundary.

Ha cool..I'd value that old peg too if I'd located it.. I'd have pinched it and I'd be breaking the law..
And ok..that's cool about the lockspits..hadn't heard that name before.. Live and learn.. Guys !

mechnificent - 2021-01-10 18:09:00

No Sparky...You said initially that there was no such thing and that a metal detector was my lunacy..I've suggested where you could find the truth, and Pico has been good enough to try and educate you. It all just reminds me of our discussion about whether I could be given land and a place to live or not the other day.

If you want to cling to your ignorance that's your right..

mechnificent - 2021-01-10 18:13:00

apollo11 wrote:

Perhaps mech is talking about boundary markers or monuments? Usually lead encased in cement. Old school stuff, the next step back was using stones.

Stonehenge was in his back garden.

mrcat1 - 2021-01-10 18:15:00

apollo11 wrote:

And they would need to be steel reinforced, or they would shatter with the first hit. Concrete pegs don't make sense. I reckon you must have read something about markers.
Can't find a single image online for 'concrete surveyor's peg' worldwide.

Probably dug in.

mrcat1 - 2021-01-10 18:18:00

mechnificent wrote:

Yeah they were reinforced and I think I mentioned that earlier in regard finding them with a metal detector..
And again, because you haven't seen one doesn't mean they weren't an option or don't exist.

Perhaps they are still at the design stage.

apollo11 - 2021-01-10 18:21:00

Maybe unicorns poo them out.

apollo11 - 2021-01-10 18:22:00

mechnificent wrote:

No Sparky...You said initially that there was no such thing and that a metal detector was my lunacy..I've suggested where you could find the truth, and Pico has been good enough to try and educate you. It all just reminds me of our discussion about whether I could be given land and a place to live or not the other day.

If you want to cling to your ignorance that's your right..

No, you said "Pegs always used to have a steel peg under them or real close," and the Rules posted don't say anything about that. Only the need for a peg to have a metal pin attached in bush areas.

And Service Tenancies are still covered by the RTA regardless of what you think.

sparkychap - 2021-01-10 18:22:00

Free will.

mechnificent - 2021-01-10 18:34:00

mechnificent wrote:

Free will.

Can't contract out of the law.

sparkychap - 2021-01-10 18:47:00

I never said you could.

mechnificent - 2021-01-10 18:49:00

mechnificent wrote:

No Sparky...You said initially that there was no such thing and that a metal detector was my lunacy..I've suggested where you could find the truth, and Pico has been good enough to try and educate you. It all just reminds me of our discussion about whether I could be given land and a place to live or not the other day.

If you want to cling to your ignorance that's your right..

To be clear, my contributions to this thread were sparked by needing to correct your misconceptions, ones that you represented as fact.
- there are no steel pins buried below survey pegs in NZ.
- there are steel pins driven beside survey pegs placed in bush areas.
- Concrete survey pegs were not a requirement. In fact, while an option under the regulations, these are very uncommon in NZ.
- The buried steel witness and traverse marks placed by surveyors reference boundary corners, but do so from any bearing or distance and are not consistent at all.
- A metal detector is essential to find those buried marks with any ease or regularity.
- Definitely the marks cannot be used in isolation, there also needs to be continued reference to the relevant survey plans. But for real success that also requires a level of knowledge and understanding, such as that of a licensed surveyor.

pico42 - 2021-01-11 11:23:00

mechnificent wrote:

I never said you could.

so what’s free will got to do with it then?

sparkychap - 2021-01-11 11:32:00

Yup Pico, I'm quite happy to admit that my ten or fifteen year old memory of the regs were faulty.. I'm not a surveyor and only read up once before to see what I could find on my place.
The whole discussion was sparked by Sparky suggesting that I was imagining the idea that there were iron spikes which might be found with a metal detector.
Thanks for your input.

mechnificent - 2021-01-11 12:07:00

mechnificent wrote:

You can get your survey plans and notes for a few dollars from LINZ. Then do a simple survey yourself.. If you can get a metal detector you should be able to find/verify the steel pegs that are below the survey pegs, or where the pegs should be.

.

sparkychap - 2021-01-11 12:31:00

pico42 wrote:

- there are steel pins driven beside survey pegs placed in bush areas.

Rural lifestyle boundary points???
Would they have a steel pin under them as I have lost one peg on my place and could find its position with a detector.

mrcat1 - 2021-01-11 18:33:00

You get in touch with LINZ Mrcat and order your plans and survey notes.. They are cheap. It will show you what should be there. The pegs can be underground by a small amount but findable with a spade..

mechnificent - 2021-01-11 18:45:00

I've found steel pins by dead reckoning and then digging around in a circle till I found them. They were within a circle about two metres round and just below the surface. A long tape helps. Best if you can triangulate, but even a hand compass helps.
If you are using the compass, read along the fence, then calculate the difference between the fence and the pin angle off the plan, and apply that difference to the fence bearing.. That way you don't need to go applying magnetic north shifts

mechnificent - 2021-01-11 18:54:00

http://ics.org.nz/regs.html

mechnificent - 2021-01-11 19:05:00

mrcat1 wrote:

Rural lifestyle boundary points???
Would they have a steel pin under them as I have lost one peg on my place and could find its position with a detector.

Unlikely.
But there will be a witness / reference mark somewhere near it.

pico42 - 2021-01-11 20:10:00

mechnificent wrote:

You get in touch with LINZ Mrcat and order your plans and survey notes.. They are cheap. It will show you what should be there. The pegs can be underground by a small amount but findable with a spade..

I know where basically it is, its in the driveway but I caught it with the mower and pruned it and I also graze my cows in there as well so may have pushed it out of sight, I just thought if it had a pin I would find it with a detector.
I'm going to replace my big machine in the near future with one of the new ones fitted with factory Trimble 3D on it, so may have a little fun and try and locate it with that when I have it home and bored.

Edited by mrcat1 at 8:24 pm, Mon 11 Jan

mrcat1 - 2021-01-11 20:24:00

Had to look that up.. seems a bit excessive but I guess you know what you're doing..

mechnificent - 2021-01-11 20:30:00

mechnificent wrote:

Had to look that up.. seems a bit excessive but I guess you know what you're doing..

From time to time I bring them back to the yard, and at over $300k I hope I know what to do with it.

mrcat1 - 2021-01-11 20:33:00

I think some pegs do have a nail in the top for aligning the theodolite on.. with a plumb-bob.. Might only be temporary pegs for the survey though.. Pico will know.

mechnificent - 2021-01-11 20:35:00

And it's a cat is it.. nice bullys cats.. Actually all bullys are nice hehe..

mechnificent - 2021-01-11 20:36:00

And yeah I figured the trimble's on an excavator... But bullys are nice.

mechnificent - 2021-01-11 20:38:00

mechnificent wrote:

Had to look that up.. seems a bit excessive but I guess you know what you're doing..

This may help.
https://youtu.be/uPlt7seVi9o

mrcat1 - 2021-01-11 20:40:00

You'll just need to turn up to put diesel in it..

mechnificent - 2021-01-11 20:51:00

mechnificent wrote:

I think some pegs do have a nail in the top for aligning the theodolite on.. with a plumb-bob.. Might only be temporary pegs for the survey though.. Pico will know.

Theodolite ?? most surveying gets done with GPS gear now .

martin11 - 2021-01-12 07:55:00

yes Martin, but there's a lot of old marks out there..

mechnificent - 2021-01-12 08:50:00

One corner of my section has been surveyed four times, with four different results. I move my fences out each time. I am not very impressed.
But I am happy to get another 10 square metres of land, at $2,500 per sq
metre.

trade4us2 - 2021-01-25 00:56:00

trade4us2 wrote:

One corner of my section has been surveyed four times, with four different results. I move my fences out each time. I am not very impressed.
But I am happy to get another 10 square metres of land, at $2,500 per sq
metre.

Really? That seems... unusual.

pico42 - 2021-01-25 10:57:00

pico42 wrote:

Really? That seems... unusual.

The back fence was surveyed in the 1850s and is on a very steep slope. The old fence posts are still there but are slipping down the hill. My neighbours have hired surveyors three times since 1990 to put a boundary peg in the corner. One of them did a good job. My GPS confirms that his peg is correct. The other two recent surveyors put their pegs in a different place. I keep telling people in here that professionals often do a bad job.

When the footpaths were redone in concrete 20 years ago the workers took out the survey mark in the footpath and stuck it back randomly afterwards. Whenever I see surveyors near it I tell them that the survey mark may not be correct. They don't seem to care.

I have watched surveyors measuring where the pegs are. They put a long pole on the peg and measure where the top of the pole is. But they don't ensure that the pole is vertical. And if three of them put a peg in a different place, at least two of them are wrong.

trade4us2 - 2021-01-25 13:06:00

pico42 wrote:

The reference pin (a witness or traverse mark, typically an iron tube or spike) gets placed near the boundary point regardless of whether there is a fence there or not. It is the primary survey mark from which the peg would be placed.
A metal detector is largely essential to find those traverse marks.

This is the first reliable post on this thread. In 35+ years surveying I have only ever seen concrete boundary markers in Borneo, because they aren't destroyed by termites there. We had a special curved spade to make a snug hole for them and the firmed then into accurate position rather than driving them in. Western Australia may have similar practices for the same termite reason.

Also the steel witness/traverse marks are typically around a foot (0.3m) below the surface to avoid being disturbed by plowing, and the maximum legal distance from a witness mark to a boundary peg was 40m for many decades though GPS surveying methods may have changed that now.

Edited by harm_less at 4:53 pm, Mon 25 Jan

harm_less - 2021-01-25 16:46:00

trade4us2 wrote:

.....The other two recent surveyors put their pegs in a different place. I keep telling people in here that professionals often do a bad job.

When the footpaths were redone in concrete 20 years ago the workers took out the survey mark in the footpath and stuck it back randomly afterwards. Whenever I see surveyors near it I tell them that the survey mark may not be correct. They don't seem to care.
.....

I guess they put more faith in their own measurements and calculations than listening to some opinionated local that disrespects their profession.

harm_less - 2021-01-25 16:56:00

harm_less wrote:

I guess they put more faith in their own measurements and calculations than listening to some opinionated local that disrespects their profession.

.

sparkychap - 2021-01-25 17:11:00

harm_less wrote:

I guess they put more faith in their own measurements and calculations than listening to some opinionated local that disrespects their profession.

The four surveyors concerned did not agree with their competitor's measurements so the peg was put in four different places.
If four professionals disagree with each other, obviously at least three of them are wrong.

trade4us2 - 2021-01-25 23:05:00

trade4us2 wrote:

The back fence was surveyed in the 1850s and is on a very steep slope. The old fence posts are still there but are slipping down the hill. My neighbours have hired surveyors three times since 1990 to put a boundary peg in the corner. One of them did a good job. My GPS confirms that his peg is correct. The other two recent surveyors put their pegs in a different place. I keep telling people in here that professionals often do a bad job.

When the footpaths were redone in concrete 20 years ago the workers took out the survey mark in the footpath and stuck it back randomly afterwards. Whenever I see surveyors near it I tell them that the survey mark may not be correct. They don't seem to care.

I have watched surveyors measuring where the pegs are. They put a long pole on the peg and measure where the top of the pole is. But they don't ensure that the pole is vertical. And if three of them put a peg in a different place, at least two of them are wrong.

How far apart are these pegs? Really unusual to place another peg if there is an original one there.
The mark in the road that was disturbed - that would show up in the measurements to other marks and be allowed for.
The pole should be vertical - there is a spirit bubble on the pole for this.

pico42 - 2021-01-26 00:02:00

trade4us2 wrote:

The four surveyors concerned did not agree with their competitor's measurements so the peg was put in four different places.
If four professionals disagree with each other, obviously at least three of them are wrong.

I've heard of situations like this in Western Australia where their survey regulations are different to here in NZ.

Any disagreement between the calculated position of a peg would be settled at the LINZ survey registration stage.

harm_less - 2021-01-26 09:07:00

harm_less wrote:

I've heard of situations like this in Western Australia where their survey regulations are different to here in NZ.

Any disagreement between the calculated position of a peg would be settled at the LINZ survey registration stage.

How would LINZ know where the pegs should be? They would just accept the readings of the surveyors, who they assume are competent. And they are clearly not competent. I don't mind as long as I keep getting more land at $2500 per square metre.

trade4us2 - 2021-01-31 21:14:00

They might be moving the peg about but the land area on your title wouldn't be changing.

pauldw - 2021-02-01 06:18:00

pauldw wrote:

They might be moving the peg about but the land area on your title wouldn't be changing.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.
Depends on why each of the four surveys were done, and the outcomes of each one.

This thread has already been plagued by absolute statements that ranged from ignoring the "it depends" facts of the matter, to being entirely wrong (if someone else says there are steel pins under boundary pegs in NZ one more time...). Please don't add to this confusion.

pico42 - 2021-02-02 20:19:00

trade4us2 wrote:

How would LINZ know where the pegs should be? They would just accept the readings of the surveyors, who they assume are competent. And they are clearly not competent. I don't mind as long as I keep getting more land at $2500 per square metre.

By checking the lodged surveys before approving them.

pico42 - 2021-02-02 20:20:00