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muzz8 - 2013-04-29 21:58:00

The member deleted this message.

muzz8 - 2013-04-29 22:00:00

carzx wrote:

He probably won't buy it for that price, as there wouldn't be enough mark-up.

I haven't seen a serrate perf in these stamps, so have nothing to compare with. If the perfs are homemade, I'm thinking what a waste of a stamp.

I have one ,Forgery of course,I will see if I can put up a scan.It certainly makes you look more closely when sorting out FFQ's and makes you wonder how many I may have dismissed in the past.

rebel58 - 2013-04-29 22:06:00

rebel58 wrote:

Is this a game ?
Do you need more than one person to play with?
Because it looks like you are playing with yourself?

I think you have both contrived this debate to drive this thread to 5000 posts, and you did not even trumpet your success. Sounds like cartel behaviour.....

echoriath - 2013-04-29 22:11:00

muzz8 wrote:

yes finally ----------told you mr rebel

so our friend used a obvious forgery -told people he did not consider it as genuine and discribed it as spacefiller,and some greedy sucker bought it, thinking they had found a bargain----end of story

He is not my friend for the record.

rebel58 - 2013-04-29 22:20:00

echoriath wrote:

I think you have both contrived this debate to drive this thread to 5000 posts, and you did not even trumpet your success. Sounds like cartel behaviour.....

Shhhhhhhh!!!!!!! you are going give away to much information.
The Cartel is very thin on the ground in these parts.

rebel58 - 2013-04-29 22:23:00

muzz8 wrote:

WELL!!! Whatever is the NZ stamp community coming too ,when a small time stamp dealer (admittedly not a prominant one thank goodness ) actively incourages other Traders and some NZSDA members to continue to break Trademe rules ,by harassing a newby over his/her listings
The vigilante group continues to specify listings and dealings that they are not happy with, and give this trader a hard time on these threads and destroy his listings
Surely this is Trademes job to sort this situation out,and they will do so if they get enough complaints directed thru the right channels. In my opinion the guy has done nothing wrong except inflate pricing (make a decent profit)and produce a little bit of puffery in his writeups(does that sound familar). The Guys in the coin thread cartel must be laughing there heads off, that this once great community thread has stooped so low as to criticise ,and mess with other traders listings
just leave the guy alone and i am sure it will all sort itself out
Dispite what a few of them may think members of the NZSDA are not the Trademe police- Thank goodness

Hey Muzz,
I am with you 100 percent
I looked at those auctions and as what most would think
thought what a laugh! Ha-De-Ha!!
Also looked at buying a car that (goes well)
but the wheels and engine were missing!

But decided after looking at photos, that it was not a good buy!!

Also why not any queries?
to sellers that sell revenues,etc--
have and selling, A class and F class cancels and state are postally used and are not!! 5 shilling 1898 is also one.
there have been more 1954 stars overprint auctioned since i have been on trademe (2005) than ever existed?
Its easy to bag the obvious which are as such

william1091 - 2013-04-29 22:37:00

rebel58 wrote:

I have one ,Forgery of course,I will see if I can put up a scan.It certainly makes you look more closely when sorting out FFQ's and makes you wonder how many I may have dismissed in the past.

Had a search about, and came up with some examples. Seems to be a range of styles.

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww218/finntroy/chalonsser
rateperf_zpsb3e53961.jpg

carzx - 2013-04-29 23:00:00

The Philatelic community has tried to help the Lister of questionable items and all they have received in return is ridicule and name calling.Prominent Stamp dealers and experts in their fields of collecting have given advice to no avail.Trademe does nothing.Trying to dupe the uneducated,new collectors is appalling,calling them greedy ,fools etc is also appalling.
Not reading all of the threads on a particular subject and coming to a misinformed opinion is also appalling .Shame shame shame!!!!

rebel58 - 2013-04-29 23:13:00

carzx wrote:

Had a search about, and came up with some examples. Seems to be a range of styles.

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww218/finntroy/chalonsser
rateperf_zpsb3e53961.jpg

One way of detecting a used perf forgery is to look at the perfs under magnification from the side and see if the postmark is transferred down the perf (the thickness of the stamp) if it is clean then more than likely a forgery.Hope this helps and my instructions are not too confusing?

rebel58 - 2013-04-29 23:20:00

rebel58 wrote:

One way of detecting a used perf forgery is to look at the perfs under magnification from the side and see if the postmark is transferred down the perf (the thickness of the stamp) if it is clean then more than likely a forgery.Hope this helps and my instructions are not too confusing?

Geez Rebel
Are you alright,? thats nonsencible?

william1091 - 2013-04-29 23:38:00

rebel58 wrote:

One way of detecting a used perf forgery is to look at the perfs under magnification from the side and see if the postmark is transferred down the perf (the thickness of the stamp) if it is clean then more than likely a forgery.Hope this helps and my instructions are not too confusing?

Not sure if there is enough ink on my one to check that with. But anyway, the perfs look too neat compared with the other examples.

carzx - 2013-04-29 23:40:00

carzx wrote:

Not sure if there is enough ink on my one to check that with. But anyway, the perfs look too neat compared with the other examples.

Yes sometimes if it looks to good to be true it is.

rebel58 - 2013-04-30 08:29:00

rebel58 wrote:

Yes sometimes if it looks to good to be true it is.

It's not likely I'll be able to buy a genuine one, so I might just keep this one to "fill the space".
At least it started life as a real stamp.

carzx - 2013-04-30 09:11:00

My problem with serrate 13,16,18 is are they regarded as perfs or roulettes ?
To perf a stamp is to punch holes it and roulettes are cut in by a wheel.
My point being if serrates are cut in it would be another tool to use as a way of identification by looking at the perfs under magnification.
Perhaps one of the more knowledgeable amongst us can tell me?

rebel58 - 2013-04-30 10:01:00

rebel58 wrote:

My problem with serrate 13,16,18 is are they regarded as perfs or roulettes ?
To perf a stamp is to punch holes it and roulettes are cut in by a wheel.
My point being if serrates are cut in it would be another tool to use as a way of identification by looking at the perfs under magnification.
Perhaps one of the more knowledgeable amongst us can tell me?

They are roulette serrated by definition. But then again, they are measured on a perf gauge. So loosely speaking, they bits that are measured are often referred to as perfs. Otherwise people would have to say they are serrates, which takes a bit more thought before speaking.
I guess a bit like calling fake stamps spacefillers.
My stamp was probably perfed, so that settles that one.

Edited by carzx at 10:27 am, Tue 30 Apr

carzx - 2013-04-30 10:26:00

Muzz8, funny you say on a previous page to not abuse or attack Traders on this site, and you've done just that. There is nothing wrong with being a small time dealer, which the majority of traders selling here are just that -you are one too - except you don't pay taxes on your sales like myself! At least I know how to describe stamps properly, you don't have the expertise. So if you think you can do better, then I suggest you open up a collector shop in town, put your money where your big waha is, and we will see if you will exist in a years time! Apparently there are hardly any actual Stamp Dealers operating with physical shops in most town centres these days, even some off the bigger operators have unfortunately closing shops and working from a home base. I've been operating in the Philatelic and Numismatic industry since 1980, on my own since 2003, and still surviving, it ain't easy out their for many small businesses. What about you Muzz8, what do you do for a crust? I know, so I suggest you put up, or as Paula Bennett says "Zip it sweetie", you're hardly the great success story yourself. I've been heavily involved with the success of 3 of the scarcest NZ Numismatic coins issued in the past eight years, these coins are now seen as the rarest modern coins produced by the Reserve Bank/NZPost. Various Community groups, individuals and designers to do with the issue, and now NZPost acknowledge my expertise, and seek out my assistance with these particular coin issues. I see this as a major success. The truth is Muzz8 never got over that I said I couldn't sell his stamps as Unhinged Mint [UHM], cause they had rust tinges on 90% of them. I've since shown other collectors that you bought this gripe up with, and they all agreed with me, and were shocked you described the stamps as being 'perfect'. I was nice to you about it, but hadn't realised you were very bitter until nasty messages started to come through. You bought it up in this forum a few years back, then when I was informed about that, I had the audacity to come on line and tell some home truths. You came up with the comment 'gotta move on', and unfortunately you haven't, refused to come up to see me to discuss the issues, and got more bitter and twisted. I said it wasn't an issue I could obtain the price you required - but I wouldn't sell rusty stamps as UHM. Nup, had an ultra big hissy fit, and have never forgiven me for pointing the issue out to the client. All this over little pieces of paper LOL@*o/??? You expected me to rip off a client by selling the stamps as UHM with price that goes with that condition, demanded that I should act in your best interests only, not the clients [cause you presumed I'd known you longer]. Even if I had, it wouldn't have influenced me - this is about integrity and fairness. This is the mentality, and now trying to protect a problematic trader with no logic sensible comments. Fortunately with your views, you show your true self. In this present situation, you've come in late, seen comments I've made and went on attack just for seeing my name. Never investigated concerns from very well meaning traders, just insinuated I was the only one voicing. There were plenty of other Traders giving warnings [including at least 2 NZSDA members]. NZSDA or NZNDA members - a majority would give me the thumbs up as being genuine and recommending others seek my expertise, thats why I still exist in this industry. Seriously Muzz8, you need to calm down and talk sense, not be nasty and vindictive - its a very very sad thing to see aye.

loision - 2013-04-30 16:11:00

The member deleted this message.

muzz8 - 2013-04-30 16:36:00

I've often said that TMMB needs a coffee spraying icon. I now find myself searching for the absent popcorn munching icon.

As for interfering in someone else's listings;-
I was very happy to point out when a seller listed a bar as solid gold when it was physically impossible to be thus given the dimensions.
I was very happy to point out when a seller listed a MTT restrike with size and weight that indicated a fake that it was just that.
I was very happy to point out when a seller listed a fake 1822 gold sovereign as genuine, that it was just that.
I didn't say a word when I was only 90% certain a siege shilling was fake, although other with more skill than me were able to point it out.

Now to the point - each time I have mentioned the ones I did mention, I have had people thanking me, when they were bidding unawares of the true nature.

However, because of it, I was suspended by TM from posting on the MB for a month and warned if I carried on such behaviour I would be banned permanently. If that's what it takes, then I would be happy with a permanent ban.

TM says it doesn't allow fakes to be sold, but it appears to give a large benefit of doubt. Buyers don't always realise that and there are sellers that will take advantage of it.

Some people may have a conscience that is not troubled by attempting to capitalise on another's 'greed' and inexperience. My conscience is certainly not troubled by highlighting these situations or by others who choose to do it.

ETA - apologies for the long post.

Edited by chrisr5 at 5:55 pm, Tue 30 Apr

chrisr5 - 2013-04-30 17:53:00

Here is another oddity I've had for a few years. It's perf measurements are 12.5 top, 11.5 bottom, 12 left and 13 right.
Is it another fiddle, or something else?

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww218/finntroy/2d_zpsaac1
64f2.jpg

carzx - 2013-04-30 18:29:00

And this one has no gum, which I've heard that many mint ones don't. So, how does one really know if the stamp is mint, or are they not called mint unless they do have gum. This one is prelure paper.

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww218/finntroy/prelure_zp
s6ccef0fb.jpg

Edited by carzx at 6:33 pm, Tue 30 Apr

carzx - 2013-04-30 18:33:00

william1091 wrote:

Hey Muzz,
I am with you 100 percent
I looked at those auctions and as what most would think
thought what a laugh! Ha-De-Ha!!
Also looked at buying a car that (goes well)
but the wheels and engine were missing!

But decided after looking at photos, that it was not a good buy!!

Also why not any queries?
to sellers that sell revenues,etc--
have and selling, A class and F class cancels and state are postally used and are not!! 5 shilling 1898 is also one.
there have been more 1954 stars overprint auctioned since i have been on trademe (2005) than ever existed?
Its easy to bag the obvious which are as such

As hory toots said on whatever "film' blasted into oblivion----- "Im'------ 'back'!!!!!!!----------
-------------------------------
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william1091 - 2013-04-30 18:53:00

carzx wrote:

Here is another oddity I've had for a few years. It's perf measurements are 12.5 top, 11.5 bottom, 12 left and 13 right.
Is it another fiddle, or something else?

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww218/finntroy/2d_zpsaac1
64f2.jpg

forgot to add, it's not watermarked.

carzx - 2013-04-30 19:09:00

william1091 wrote:

As hory toots said on whatever "film' blasted into oblivion----- "Im'------ 'back'!!!!!!!----------
-------------------------------
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-------------------------------
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-----------------------

Wow !!!!!!!!

rebel58 - 2013-04-30 20:09:00

carzx wrote:

And this one has no gum, which I've heard that many mint ones don't. So, how does one really know if the stamp is mint, or are they not called mint unless they do have gum. This one is prelure paper.

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww218/finntroy/prelure_zp
s6ccef0fb.jpg

What a beauty!!! FFQ's without gum are regarded as mint as the original gum can ruin the stamp so something has to go,the stamp or the gum.

rebel58 - 2013-04-30 20:18:00

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william1091 - 2013-04-30 20:32:00

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muzz8 - 2013-04-30 20:47:00

Full Face Queen stamps (or Chalons) are usually collected either used or unused. For unused this means without any postal markings. The reason is that the old gum arabic used back then would eventually shrink and cause the stamp to curl and often this was so strong that the gum would break the paper and then you would have a torn stamp. far better to carefully wash the gum off (along with any other old dirt and grime) and end up with a fresh unused stamp which will last forever. Washing in warm water won't hurt any FFQ's and will often freshen them up. None of the inks used for FFQ's are water soluble. The same is not the case for stamps from many other countries (Especially those of Great Britain) where printing inks were used that were fugitive. ie they ran if exposed to water. Normally when I purchase FFQ's I wash them carefully before trying to sort them out and this includes unused ones. It is very rare that I would want to leave any gum on a FFQ.

kiwisteven - 2013-04-30 23:36:00

Interesting.
Which GB stamps are likely to loose ink when soaked?

carzx - 2013-05-01 07:58:00

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muzz8 - 2013-05-01 09:00:00

The member deleted this message.

rebel58 - 2013-05-01 10:01:00

Quote :--I said I couldn't sell his stamps as Unhinged Mint [UHM], cause they had rust tinges on 90% of them.
Sorry but this is a pet hate of mine What is UHM? Supposedly A stamp with Gum never Hinged.
Here is the scenario ,A trademe seller sells a set of stamps as UHM but upon receipt the winner discovers that they are infact Hinged or had been.
Next it goes to court the defence asks what is UHM?
The prosecution says A mint stamp not hinged.
The defence replies but a stamp dealer has publicly stated that a stamp is UHM even if it has never been Hinged but has tone.
How can that be so what is UHM then?
A precedent has been set and the case is thrown out of court.
UHM A stamp that his not Hinged or any other interpretation or word play you can think of .
Or MNH Mint never Hinged?
Not mint not hinged because this is to vague as you could sell a stamp that is hinged and take the hinge off and sell it as Mint not hinged(the same goes with UHM).
If I was going to sell a stamp that had never been hinged but had tone it Would be MNH (mint never Hinged) with Tone.

Edited by rebel58 at 12:34 pm, Wed 1 May

rebel58 - 2013-05-01 12:32:00

This message was deleted.

muzz8 - 2013-05-01 12:47:00

Sorry Muzz but I am referring to a Quote and it is about terminology not any hassle you have with another trader.

rebel58 - 2013-05-01 13:00:00

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loision - 2013-05-01 13:15:00

william1091 wrote:

Hey Muzz,
I am with you 100 percent
I looked at those auctions and as what most would think
thought what a laugh! Ha-De-Ha!!
Also looked at buying a car that (goes well)
but the wheels and engine were missing!

But decided after looking at photos, that it was not a good buy!!

Also why not any queries?
to sellers that sell revenues,etc--
have and selling, A class and F class cancels and state are postally used and are not!! 5 shilling 1898 is also one.
there have been more 1954 stars overprint auctioned since i have been on trademe (2005) than ever existed?
Its easy to bag the obvious which are as such

Still All The Evaders!!
and see that not much bagging of original going on?

Also what about new people?
that list and dont know squat?
and then the jumpers that dont tell them its of good value
and rip them off with "buy Now"

okay i buy masses and just paid an old lady 5 hundy
because her husband had collected all his lfe
but they were basically rubbish.
she was nice and had squat.
but the look on her face was worth any amount.
i do it because i can
and when i meet up with half you lot in hell
i will always be the biggest!! in mind and body

just remember what you do in life and how it affects others

ps I am An Atheist

william1091 - 2013-05-01 13:25:00

william1091 wrote:

Still All The Evaders!!
and see that not much bagging of original going on?

Also what about new people?
that list and dont know squat?
and then the jumpers that dont tell them its of good value
and rip them off with "buy Now"

okay i buy masses and just paid an old lady 5 hundy
because her husband had collected all his lfe
but they were basically rubbish.
she was nice and had squat.
but the look on her face was worth any amount.
i do it because i can
and when i meet up with half you lot in hell
i will always be the biggest!! in mind and body

just remember what you do in life and how it affects others

ps I am An Atheist

And I hate Cats what is your point?

rebel58 - 2013-05-01 13:38:00

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muzz8 - 2013-05-01 13:45:00

muzz8 wrote:

get over it - they had no hinges,or sign of ever being hinged so they were uhm/mnh with a light pencil id on reverse- i am not going to add any more--three major dealers agreed with me- so i am happy with my discription- you obviously are not up with the rules of trademe threads,so you are probally better to stay away,as you are getting far to personal
just let it go please

by the way everyone ,i found that relevant bible verse i was looking for John 8 1-11 and it talks about not critising/abusing others when you are not perfect yourself

strange that the one about doing unto others must have been invisible like the source of the inscriptions at some stage ;-)

Edited by tmg at 1:50 pm, Wed 1 May

tmg - 2013-05-01 13:49:00

rebel58 wrote:

And I hate Cats what is your point?

Thats all you can come up with you frivilous man ( you liked cats at one point?)
still neanderthals
man this is fun!! and i will out-boot anyone

Went to a MENSA metting a few years back
but i tossed them out because they were idiots!!

william1091 - 2013-05-01 13:50:00

william1091 wrote:

Thats all you can come up with you frivilous man ( you liked cats at one point?)
still neanderthals
man this is fun!! and i will out-boot anyone

Went to a MENSA metting a few years back
but i tossed them out because they were idiots!!

did they find the wrong metting by chance ? ;-)

tmg - 2013-05-01 13:51:00

This message was deleted.

muzz8 - 2013-05-01 13:54:00

william1091 wrote:

Thats all you can come up with you frivilous man ( you liked cats at one point?)
still neanderthals
man this is fun!! and i will out-boot anyone

Went to a MENSA metting a few years back
but i tossed them out because they were idiots!!

Or did they toss you out poor spelling?

rebel58 - 2013-05-01 14:01:00

Come on Rebel,
Look at your last line
as for spelling i cant be wrong as i invented it!!
from the last crusades!
and please anyone have a whack at me---------
with common scence!!!?

william1091 - 2013-05-01 14:26:00

OK Rebel ( Paul)
I think we could actually get along-- you have exhuberance-- not that much equalled by others---

Kind Regards Brett

william1091 - 2013-05-01 14:31:00

fredrika wrote:

I just thought I would start up a Stamp Club thread so stamp questions and comments can be kept in one thread instead of all over the place.

Kind Regards to you and i Hope we can get back to
your Foundation of what you started.

william1091 - 2013-05-01 15:45:00

Well folks you have a look at four lots I've put up from the collection in question - that was sold to me as UHM. As said, I sold the majority of the collection as Mint with toning or pencil marks on them, I refused to sell as UHM. Unfortunately the Rust [toning] spots aren't showing on the scans that clearly, the scans don't do the Rust justice! But the toning is evident, I welcome your views. If you look at the scans and see a brown tinge on the reverse thats the toning. The pencil is obvious, and they aren't lightly written on either - pencil marks were on 90% of the stamps in the collection. I was informed as you have, by the seller that I don't know what I am talking about, that these marks are Official Dealer identification markings - and that the stamp collection is nothing short of UHM. On attempting to carefully rub out and remove the pencil marks, the gum became effected - showing a light smudge mark, so I gave up. The issue has never been about price, but about the classification of the stamps as UHM, and also that there was a lot of toning. Yep, agreed the stamps don't have a hinge [comment came back from the seller], but I couldn't justify selling these stamps as UHM, which to me that terminolgy means perfect. Toning was on the majority of the collection, agreed light toning, and mainly evident on the edge of the perforations, hardly noticeable, but very noticeable to me and why I wouldn't put one across a buyer.

loision - 2013-05-01 15:59:00

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muzz8 - 2013-05-01 16:19:00

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muzz8 - 2013-05-01 16:20:00

To me, UHM, and MNH are the same thing. It means the stamp has never been hinged. I don't think it's worth getting too hung up on the definition of abbreviations though. The main thing is to describe the stamps accurately.
I'm with Rebel on this one, and would specify the toning, pencil marks, gum scuffs etc. Whether or not you put UHM or not doesn't matter, but you could say they haven't been hinged. The back scan is always good, and I always provide one unless in some cases where the stamps are faultless, and there's nothing to see.
UHM does not mean faultless to me. Some can be other than dead flat, but it is good if the description mentions it.

carzx - 2013-05-01 16:21:00