I've been thinking about my various forebears, who came from different parts of England and also from Germany during the nineteenth and early twentieth century.

And I'd love to know more about the social, economic and other pressures that led to people, both as individuals and as families, uprooting themselves to travel halfway across the world, knowing they could never go back. I've browsed the shelves at my local library but as yet haven't found a book on this subject, though I do own 'The German Connection', edited by James N Bade.

I don't have Scottish forebears but believe the Highland clearances would have been one factor in people's decision to emigrate. What was happening in England, particularly for farm labourers and the like, that would have had a similar result?

Are there any books on the subject that people recommend?

venna2 - 2019-12-29 18:49:00

'The Unsettling of Europe" by Peter Gatrell would seem to fit the bill but I haven't read it.
Google "book about European emigrations" or something similar and you will find heaps to choose from, often with reviews.

raffella - 2019-12-29 22:05:00

I have "The Farthest Promised Land" by Rollo Arnold. It deal with the agriculture side of things. Inside cover says "English villagers, NZ immigrants of the 1870's"

jan2242 - 2019-12-30 07:49:00

Thanks for those suggestions, I'll see if I can track down those books, and will do the googling. Re 'The Farthest Promised Land', my agricultural labourer forebears emigrated from Wiltshire in 1842 so somewhat before the 1870s but it could still be interesting..

I see 'The Unsettling of Europe' relates to emigration from 1945 so is no good for my purposes.

Edited by venna2 at 8:25 am, Mon 30 Dec

venna2 - 2019-12-30 08:21:00

I've discovered one book that's in the Wellington library system and have reserved it. I really thought there would be more but it seems not.

Simpson, Tony, 1945-
The immigrants : the great migration from Britain to New Zealand, 1830-1890 /

venna2 - 2019-12-30 08:42:00

The Enclosures Act and Irish Potato Famine were earlier causes. In the system of tenant farming, the tenancy was passed to the oldest son so others had to find work elsewhere. Most farms were too small to support more families.

amasser - 2019-12-30 10:15:00

Thanks amasser. Some of my forebears were tenant farmers in Yorkshire so that info is useful. However, the Wiltshire ones were just farm labourers. I was in the village they came from, Ramsbury, a few years ago, and was loaned an interesting book on the district, which described the dire situation for farm workers in the 1830s and '40s. but this book isn't available in NZ libraries.

I'll google the Enclosures Act. Yes, not being able to graze their own stock on common land - I remember this from the book about Ramsbury.
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldhistory2/ch
apter/the-enclosure-act/

Edited by venna2 at 10:21 am, Mon 30 Dec

venna2 - 2019-12-30 10:19:00

This is another article I must read, rather than skim. I do prefer printed material to screens!

http://www.thelandmagazine.org.uk/articles/short-history-enc
losure-britain

venna2 - 2019-12-30 10:39:00

I often purchase books on Trademe for my researches...just bought one a few seconds ago for some names I recognized other than that I try and trace descendants to help me... I am researching Clareville Early Graves Cemetery in Wairarapa.. one German family buried there.

neich - 2019-12-30 14:44:00

Any more suggestions for books relating to emigration from Britain and Europe to New Zealand in the nineteenth century, and the social and economic conditions that led up to so many people deciding to emigrate?

venna2 - 2019-12-31 10:30:00

I googled

reasons for german emigration in 19th century

There are a few options there.

nbrob - 2019-12-31 13:12:00

It was not confined to just New Zealand or come to that the 19th century. The latter half of the 18th saw emigration as well, from most European countries. True there was the Clearances and the Enclosure Acts but new lands were being discovered with new or better opportunities. Farmers in Europe that hitherto scratched out a meagre living on a few acres of land could go to Argentina and Pennsylvania, Virginia, Massachusetts in the American Colonies and have squillions of acres given to them to play with. Later they came Australasia for the same reason.
I suggest that you look around Wikipedia, some good reading in there

td5fan - 2019-12-31 14:16:00

From oral history passed down the generations, my ancestors came from Prussia (now Germany) in the 1890's. They came originally from the Eastside near the Polish border. My great grandfather was only an infant when he arrived through the Port in Dunedin.
The story goes that has been handed down is that back in this time, the residents of villages were not even allowed to marry outside of their village, they weren't allowed to move elsewhere due to the food and work shortage, as there was a huge shortage of food and work for the entire country.
Once their Government said that they could leave the country, that there was mass migration. As the Government could not support their people anymore.
My ancestors their occupations were stable hands and working as farm labourers.
My great grandfathers family was large, some of his uncles left for America. Did you know that there were so many Prussian/German immigrants to America that they voted in congress to what language to be spoken in the USA, and it was the only by one vote that English was voted for, and it was the Prussian/German member that voted against speaking German)
The language used with my ancestors was the old German language at the time they migrated. These ancestors as the story goes, got word to come to America from my great great grandfather's siblings and instead they got on the wrong ship which went to New Zealand, which was at the final leg to getting to the UK to catch the ship to the USA.
This family that arrived settled near Gore, (did you know that there were so many Prussians/German immigrants that they called the place they settled in 'German Town'). That then they sent word that how great this place was and a further two more brothers came out.
Some of these nationalities also changed their names to make it easier to pronounce.
Did you know our NZ Government during the war treated any male born in Germany as spies, my great grandfather who was only an infant when he arrived in NZ. They locked up in jail the men that were born in Germany, as they believed them to be spies, we believe they were locked up in the locked up facilities in Bank Peninsula near Lyttleton, this type of history to what our Government did doesn't really get heard?
We went back (5 years ago) to East Germany, where our ancestors came from, which are villages an hour from Berlin, in some villages it still looks the era that they came from, stables are still there, and the beautiful old Churches. We weren't able to find any burial headstones that we knew were at the Churches, as in Germany they recycle their graveyards, I think it's every fifty years that they continue the cycle, therefore very rare to see any old headstones.
Not everything is fully written to how and why people immigrated.
My English great-great-grandfather came out on the 6th ship that landed at the port of Lyttleton, in the first four ships, the oral history goes that my great-great mother, came out on one of the first four ships (we know the name) as a guest of the captain as her family were from a well to do family, she came out for health reason to do the trip as they would believe travelling in sea air was good for ones health. She was meant to return, and she didn't she stayed. There was a wait for three months for those ships to return to London.
Would upset the first four shipping lists if we can find this info, we have tried, though one has not stopped looking and will continue.
Family history is fascinating, to the struggles they all faced, how they lived, to the reason for even myself to be able to be given life, I am so very grateful for all that they have been through and accomplished to provide a better life and future for their generations.
It was their gutsiness to why our family are here and living in NZ.

jules286 - 2020-01-02 13:03:00

Thanks jules286, that's really interesting. My own German forebears came from a village called Hann. Münden in Lower Saxony, emigrating in 1859. I know very little about the political situation then - was it still known as Prussia rather than Germany? I will have to read the book I have more thoroughly.

venna2 - 2020-01-02 14:08:00

[quote=jules286
My ancestors their occupations were stable hands and working as farm labourers.

Did you know our NZ Government during the war treated any male born in Germany as spies, my great grandfather who was only an infant when he arrived in NZ. They locked up in jail the men that were born in Germany, as they believed them to be spies, we believe they were locked up in the locked up facilities in Bank Peninsula near Lyttleton, this type of history to what our Government did doesn't really get heard?

Not everything is fully written to how and why people immigrated.
My English great-great-grandfather came out on the 6th ship that landed at the port of Lyttleton, in the first four ships, the oral history goes that my great-great mother, came out on one of the first four ships (we know the name) as a guest of the captain as her family were from a well to do family, she came out for health reason to do the trip as they would believe travelling in sea air was good for ones health. She was meant to return, and she didn't she stayed. There was a wait for three months for those ships to return to London.
Would upset the first four shipping lists if we can find this info, we have tried, though one has not stopped looking and will continue.
[/quote]

German immigrants in the 1800s here often changed their name or spelling of it (or it was changed for them in general use) to allow for anglicisation, and later for WW1.

What was the name and year of the 6th ship into Lyttleton?

What year did your great-great mother arrive and what is the name of the first four ship you can't find, and why would it upset the first four shipping lists?

Edited by morticia at 3:43 pm, Thu 2 Jan

morticia - 2020-01-02 15:40:00

My dad was from the UK, came with parents after war cause rationing continued etc and it was rubbish.
My mum escaped from Communist Hungary after the uprising and Russia went back and shot the s*** out of the place with their tanks.

My great, great......grandfather went from Flanders to the UK cause he had to, some war he got dragged over to fight in, as it was then, you got a piece of land if you survived.

lythande1 - 2020-01-02 16:18:00

morticia wrote:

[quote=jules28-
6
My ancestors their occupations were stable hands and working as farm labourers.

Did you know our NZ Government during the war treated any male born in Germany as spies, my great grandfather who was only an infant when he arrived in NZ. They locked up in jail the men that were born in Germany, as they believed them to be spies, we believe they were locked up in the locked up facilities in Bank Peninsula near Lyttleton, this type of history to what our Government did doesn't really get heard?

Not everything is fully written to how and why people immigrated.
My English great-great-grandfather came out on the 6th ship that landed at the port of Lyttleton, in the first four ships, the oral history goes that my great-great mother, came out on one of the first four ships (we know the name) as a guest of the captain as her family were from a well to do family, she came out for health reason to do the trip as they would believe travelling in sea air was good for ones health. She was meant to return, and she didn't she stayed. There was a wait for three months for those ships to return to London.
Would upset the first four shipping lists if we can find this info, we have tried, though one has not stopped looking and will continue.

German immigrants in the 1800s here often changed their name or spelling of it (or it was changed for them in general use) to allow for anglicisation, and later for WW1.

What was the name and year of the 6th ship into Lyttleton?

What year did your great-great mother arrive and what is the name of the first four ship you can't find, and why would it upset the first four shipping lists?[/quote]
There were 6 ships that left with the Canterbury fleet (Anglicans), the first four were the important immigrants for Colonising, the 6th Ship is the Isabella Hercus. Apologies as I know all the first Ships, though my 2x great grandmother apparently as the story goes, arrived on the Charlotte Jane 1851 (no proof that she ever arrived on any shipping list, so can't prove she came on the Charlotte Jane) she was a minor at the time and was a minor when she married my 2x great grandfather that arrived on the Isabella Hercus. They married 1854 at St Michael's in Christchurch. In 1854 they allowed marriages to take place in NZ, she was a minor so her parent's names should have been noted (as we have no parents names) But NZ in 1854 didn't keep these records for this first year, these only started in 1855.
The Church records don't have this info.
It's Christchurch :-) the first Four ships descendants are very important for the founding history of Christchurch, therefore they would like the shipping lists to be what is recorded.
Did you know until the earthquakes hit (as now the Christchurch Cathedral is in ruins, no one other than the descendants of the first four ships could get married etc at this Church, not the 5th or the 6th etc Ships :-)

jules286 - 2020-01-02 19:50:00

venna2 wrote:

Thanks jules286, that's really interesting. My own German forebears came from a village called Hann. Münden in Lower Saxony, emigrating in 1859. I know very little about the political situation then - was it still known as Prussia rather than Germany? I will have to read the book I have more thoroughly.

When the ancestors came out they were referred to as Prussians from Prussia the Angermundy region, that's an hour drive East of Berlin, and from memory, they gave up their rights as Prussians when they immigrated.
It's all so fascinating, the past History and what our ancestors went through.
Thanks for asking.

jules286 - 2020-01-02 19:58:00

My German forebears were naturalised (sp?) on board ship in 1859. I believe the New Zealand Company had an agent in Hamburg and was actively encouraging Germans to emigrate to NZ. My great-great-grandfather was a builder/zimmermeister and I guess that occupation was in demand. They brought five or six children with them. I've been to the town where they lived, their house is still there, and it made me wonder what their reaction would have been to arriving in Nelson at such an unsettled time, and unable to go back (they were assisted passengers).

venna2 - 2020-01-07 11:10:00

Ironic that 2 leading generals in W.W. II were Freyberg and Kippenberger (born in Christchurch).
Also believe that Hallensteins' (German Jews) shops were damaged and Lutheran church bells destroyed in W.W. I.

amasser - 2020-01-07 11:28:00

Yes, that was really cruel and misguided, especially as the British Royal Family are themselves of German descent.

venna2 - 2020-01-07 12:24:00

The family I have assisted research for from Germany were the Meenken sometimes spelt Menken.. Frederick came with his brother, first to Featherston, sadly his brother died there about 1860 and buried there, no idea where in the cemetery as not shown on the plans I have! but Frederick came to Clareville where I am today, he is buried locally know his grave and family. They came from Walle in Germany, think his father from memory was a shoe maker... have met some of the descendants and I think I know more about the background then them... fascinating to read it all, often pick up a file and read their history, as I do quite a few of the early settlers from Carterton District. Frederick's son, Oswald served in WW1 and survived.. buried with his wife out of Pahiatua. One German person from Carterton was bullied during WW1 and went AWOL. hard for his family as he wasnt seen again.. I know who he was.. cruel world we live in..

neich - 2020-01-08 20:23:00

There were many reasons. In my own family:
Robert and Sarah Willis left Ireland in 1845, probably due to the great starvation. He had joined the British Army and was posted to the 65th Regiment who were sent to New Zealand. They stayed on his discharge in 1860.
William James Gore, my great grandfather. He was an orphan (I think) by 1886. His cousins who had come here in 1875, went back to collect him to be raised by William's Aunty, Mary Anne. She had left William's Uncle because he was a philanderer and took her three young children to New Zealand.
Hans and Maren Hansen, my Norwegian great great grandparents. Jules Vogel's settlement scheme for Scandenavians.
Some of my others, probably because Industrial Victorian England wasn't a good place unless you had money. Judging by what one of my great grandfathers got up to here, he may have been running from bad debt.

redden39 - 2020-01-09 18:22:00

jules286 wrote:

When the ancestors came out they were referred to as Prussians from Prussia the Angermundy region, that's an hour drive East of Berlin, and from memory, they gave up their rights as Prussians when they immigrated.
It's all so fascinating, the past History and what our ancestors went through.
Thanks for asking.

I have a copy of the document where our Germans renounced their German citizenship on emigration, they had 6 months to return to Germany before it became absolute. That was 1872.

Edited by morticia at 7:00 pm, Thu 9 Jan

morticia - 2020-01-09 18:55:00

I wonder how many could afford to return to Germany if that's what they wanted to do. My forebears were assisted passengers, travelling steerage, and were naturalised on board ship in 1859. I very much doubt that they could have raised the money to return, unless their passage was paid for under the scheme. And I've wondered if they might have regretted leaving Germany, I've seen the town where they lived and it seems they had a settled life there.

venna2 - 2020-01-09 20:47:00

look at the folk put on Somes Island (in the middle of Wellington Harbour) for years... I know of one German who hid for years in the Tararaua Ranges near Pahiatua, didn't want to be arrested and put on the Island, heard this from a lady living in the town..

neich - 2020-01-10 06:28:00

morticia wrote:

I have a copy of the document where our Germans renounced their German citizenship on emigration, they had 6 months to return to Germany before it became absolute. That was 1872.

Yes, it was in the early 1870's that this was put in force, I don't have access to our family documents, so it's all by memory, though I have read this on their papers. I believe their homebirth country couldn't afford to keep all their people. Wonder how society would handle this if one was to leave their home country nowadays with the same restrictions.
I visited one of the German Museums while on a visit to Berlin, and this is all written up on a timeline on the walls. They had it tough and extremely hard, then to be told, once you leave that's it, as they would've had no money to return to a country that couldn't provide, and no life there as well.

jules286 - 2020-01-10 09:39:00

neich wrote:

look at the folk put on Somes Island (in the middle of Wellington Harbour) for years... I know of one German who hid for years in the Tararaua Ranges near Pahiatua, didn't want to be arrested and put on the Island, heard this from a lady living in the town..

Anyone (I believe) that was born in these times in Germany were all treated very awful, from NZ society. The fear that the person above lived in would have been horrific.

jules286 - 2020-01-10 09:55:00